Some questions for "Believers".

[theseeker]

Some questions for "Believers"

Okay, I realize that everyone here believes that aliens have been visiting earth for millions of years, are responsible for our being human through a "targeted mutation", and have built every structure on earth because man is utterly incapable of putting one stone on top of another. So...I have some questions I would appreciate if you all could answer, because there are so many flaws I see with these "theories" that it's breathtaking. It seems that most are such an extreme stretch of the remotest and most unlikely possibility as to border on the absurd and neglect all possibility of logic.


1. If the aliens were here for millions of years and advanced our civilization by helping the israelites, building the pyramids, etc., then where did they go? If they were so benevolent for so long, why have they completely abandoned us when we now have the technology and means to annihilate the entire earth?

2. Regarding the "gold flyer": If the aliens have the ability to manipulate gravity and the fabric of space/time in order to travel the necessary faster than light speed to visit earth, you really think they would be flying around in primitive airplane-like craft that have wings and normal propulsion? What possible need would they have for wings and a fuselage when they can manipulate gravity? Do you really think that that's more likely than its being a model of an insect, given that there are an estimated 5 to 8 million distinct insect species, with an estimate total of 10 quintillion insects on earth? That's a 10 with *18* zeroes after it! With all that diversity, isn't it *FAR* more likely that it's a model of a unique insect?

3. The pyramids: With all the evidence of the construction of the pyramids, from historical records, camp site and burial grounds of workers all around the pyramid complexes, huge stone-cut frescoes depicting cranes and workers moving blocks, worker graffiti on the inner-most complex stones of burial chambers, etc. why is it inconceivable that man built the pyramids? Why are they not able to build ramps and stack stones on top of each other? The pharaohs had hundreds of thousands of workers available and a huge food surplus every year. Also, what about the Colosseum in Rome? That too is a breathtaking display of technology and accomplishment created 2000 years ago, but is amply documented. What about the great wall of china? That required more stones and workers than all the pyramids, crossed the highest of mountain peaks, and the segments stretched for a total of thousands of miles. This was clearly done by humans, yet was a bigger task than the pyramids. So, clearly these monumental tasks do not require alien intervention.

4. The "targeted mutation": If we humans were created by aliens to work as slaves in giant mines, why do we have evidence of an evolutionary progression over millions of years? If we were created with a "targeted mutation", then there should be only be two things: a primate version of us, and then only modern humans. But the archaeological and fossil records show that over millions of years our skulls, back, etc all evolved to its modern shape. Why would neanderthals have existed if we were created with a "targeted mutation". Would purpose would they serve? On a side note, why would they need slave workers? If they're powerful enough to manipulate gravity to get here, wouldn't they have advanced anti-gravity mining equipment? What possible need would they have for primates with chisels?


I'll post a bunch more questions but I don't want to bog down everything in a single post. But basically it comes down to Occam's razor: the simplest solution is usually the correct one. That is, it's far more likely to have thousands of humans hauling stones with ropes to build their leader's tomb than to have aliens coming to earth and building monuments that serve them no purpose.

Before you reply, please remember that just as you are convinced because you feel the evidence is there, I am not convinced because I feel the evidence is not there. So, please, no personal attacks, belligerent posts asking me why I can't see the truth, why I have been brainwashed by "The Man", etc. Give me rational explanations or theories. Thanks.

[Believer]

First I thought the question was for me since my nickname here is similar to your post title

most of your questions already have huge discussions on this board, running into several pages - pyramids, why did "they" leave us, the genetic mutation and mines theory. Check them out.

[theseeker]

Yeah, when I saw the first reply I actually grinned, not realizing there was someone with your user name. I did search and read the various topics, but they all basically espouse the same viewpoint: the aliens did it. None of them ever offer a different viewpoint, which is not surprising given the nature of this forum. Why is rational discourse essentially not possible here? Everybody seems to think that a different viewpoint means either

a. You are a sheep
b. You are a government shill or agent
c. You are blind because everything is so obvious
d. You are Giorgio Tsoukalos's evil alter ego. ;P

Seriously, does anyone have any answers to my questions?

[angeloneastralseed]

Hi Seeker - here is my opinion (for what it's worth)

#1 Where did they go? - I think (since we weren't there) that we speculate the aliens were among us for years and years in the ancient world, when in fact I bet they visited short periods of times and most likely a long time in between. I don't think they lived with us, dined with us, partied, had relations with our women for centuries then just up and left. What we see today is what was seen back in the day - visits with certain people and in spurts (is that a word?).

#2 Isn't it *FAR* more likely a model of a unique insect? - I truly believe there are so MANY life forms in the universe that even WE cannot imagine what they look like. Therefore, if manlike or insect like has visited us, well then, we can recognize them in a familiar fashion. Don't limit yourself to thinking they only look one certain way. We have ancient art to show us what they were seeing; if they saw human like that's what they drew. For all we know there is probably a planet filled with robots.

#3... monumental tasks so not require alien intervention. - You mention that the pyramids are clearly documented - where is the documentation? If there was documentation at hand there would be no mystery. You are right, the Great Wall of China is a huge task along with the pyramids; again we have to look at the means of documentation - art, wall paintings, carvings... on and on. If the means of paper documentation is unavailable we look to the stone walls. They have UFO craft and alien looking creatures on them. China also shows many paintings, stories, and art showing UFO and alien encounters.

#4 why would they have primates with chisels? - Again I refer back to the most puzzling history book, the Bible. It clearly shows there are different types of humans on the earth when Adam and Eve were created; why were they here? Why the need to create more? Still remains something my mind is working out. Not all were designed as slaves to mine the earth. Such as we create optimum breeds of horses to meet various needs (or wants) perhaps the human race was designed the same way - you have some best fit for breeding, some for their knowledge, some for their immune system, or whatever their needs are.

We have no idea if the monuments served the aliens a purpose or not (we weren't there) In 2,000 years from now, if all of our records have been destroyed, will the humans of the future read these forums and try to figure out what we are describing? Everyone has to come to their own conclusion. What one sees as fact, another may not. So the question is; what facts is everyone looking for? Many documents (they best they knew how) from many nations of UFO or aliens on walls, caves and paintings? Or does one require a spaceship to land in front of them and an alien walk out and shake their hand?

We can take this further and say - What proof do we have that the earth is really floating in space - Have you seen it for yourself? I haven't; I go by the documentation I have been provided with. Will you accept the pictures from NASA or do you need to be flown there to see for yourself?

Nobody is going to attack you, you are entitled to your questions because quite frankly these were the same questions I had years ago. Questioning a theory is a good thing - it gets us thinking. It's all good, and I look forward to the other questions.

[angeloneastralseed]

Oh, I forgot to mention - Occam's Razor - watch the movie "Contact" with Helen Hunt.

[Ace Rimmer]

But basically it comes down to Occam's razor: the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

Yes that works for me, that would be Alien Intervention.

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -Prince Gautama "Buddha"

Just about everything I have read or seen over the last 41 years in my studying of the Ancient Alien theory follows that criteria. It is the only thing that makes any sense to me inregards to our origins.

Yeah, when I saw the first reply I actually grinned, not realizing there was someone with your user name. I did search and read the various topics, but they all basically espouse the same viewpoint: the aliens did it. None of them ever offer a different viewpoint, which is not surprising given the nature of this forum. Why is rational discourse essentially not possible here? Everybody seems to think that a different viewpoint means either

a. You are a sheep
b. You are a government shill or agent
c. You are blind because everything is so obvious
d. You are Giorgio Tsoukalos's evil alter ego. ;P

Seriously, does anyone have any answers to my questions?

There are different viewpoints on this forum, not all of us believe in the AAT.

So...I have some questions I would appreciate if you all could answer, because there are so many flaws I see with these "theories" that it's breathtaking. It seems that most are such an extreme stretch of the remotest and most unlikely possibility as to border on the absurd and neglect all possibility of logic.

I do find it fascinating that you think we have flawed theories, absurd ideas and are illogical and still you seek answers from us.

[Believer]

I think the only point that hasn't been answered in any of the discussions on this board is the one raised about the crafts - why must aliens, who can bend space and time, have planes like the one's we have with fuselages and wings.

But equally, must alien aircraft always be saucers? Why can't a fuselage and wing plane be able to distort gravity? Just because we can't with our technology doesn't mean someone else can't either. And remember that one can't always replicate something down to the T in pictures - not even Da Vinci.
So, they probably drew it the best way they could and that's not to say that there weren't fuselage and wing planes (the pre columbian one's to scale figure flew with the addition of an engine after all) but there are also other drawings with weird looking crafts that look nothing like fuselage and wings one's.

[Ace Rimmer]

The planes could be the gliders of ancient civilizations and not Aliens.

[angeloneastralseed]

Once again, nothing is limited to what a few or even all of us has mentioned. Who said alien aircraft is strictly with wings, fuselages, or saucers? those are just "types" that have been documented.

With invisibility technology at our front door - who is to say other worlds have not mastered this ability and we can't even see their type of technology or mode of transportation?

Scientists are also on the verge of tele-transporting (believe it or not) they have figured out how to separate the molecular structure and now working on how to put them back together. Possible that we are way behind a world that can already do this.

[Gemini]

Some questions for "Believers"

"Belief" has nothing to do with the preponderance of the evidence for advanced technology being used in the ancient past.

There would be huge ramifications if the mainstream science community starting talking about Nikola Tesla free wireless energy towers, for example. All part of hidden and suppressed histories.

[Nikola]

Hey there.
First off, congratulations for questioning things. No matter what, this is the way of the truth, brother.

1. No one can be sure about the intentions of the higher intelligent creatures which were messing around with our prehistoric ancestors. So "helping the israelites and building the pyramids" is not proven to be correct, therefore no conclusions should be made out of it. And "they were so benevolent" shouldn't be taken into account because it's a pure guess.

Where did they go? In the kingdom of heaven
Seriously, are you asking that?

2. The flayer is real, undeniable evidence that someone long time ago was very well aware of the aerodynamics. And no, it doesn't share the look of any of the planet earth's animal species. If it is an insect model, that means that the master crafter who built it, must've had seen it with his eyes to copy it's features onto the sculpture. Have such species been discovered around or close to the area where the flayer had been found? No.
Show me the insect or the bird model and i'll believe you.

3. The pyramids.
Show me that evidence! I mean it. Show me.
Show me the frescoes where the slaves are tugging blocks with varying weight of 2 to 100 tons. Both limestone and granite. Show the frescoes of slaves putting blocks on the pyramid. Where are those cranes you're mentioning? Have you seen how the crane that can lift 200 tons today looks like?
Let's say that they indeed were able to cut, bring and set in place a 3 ton block every 2 minutes(which is more ridiculous than any small grey aliens theory btw) - where is the proof of that technology? Where are their cranes and pulleys?
"The pharaohs had hundreds of thousands of workers available and a huge food surplus every year" were able only to build ugly, small and bent out of shape structures made with clay bricks in order to mimic the gods perfection. The Joser's Pyramid for example - go and just look at the materials the egyptians used there to upgrade on top of the older and perfect foundation, and you'll understand. And what specifically the mastabas prove? How many pharaohs were found inside of the pyramids sarcophaguses? But so called "historical records" still claim that those megalithic structures are tombs! On what basis? There is a manuscript in the museum in Cairo explaining how Khufu had been trying to break into the great pyramid long time before Al'Mamun succeeded. But no one pays attention to that.
What AAT theorists state is that aliens COULD and most PROBABLY were intervening in some way. No one is saying that they and they alone built it.
The pyramids are the worst case scenario and the worst nightmare when it comes to supporting the mainstream stupidity.

4. We do not have any evidence of evolutionary progression. What do we have is a huge gap between our kind and the alleged hominid. They have 48 chromosomes and we have 46! Explain this with evolution, please! Because if you trace back all the hominids - they have always had 48. And suddenly we pop out with 46. I guess you have heard of a missing link. Why would there be a missing link at all if the science has it explained already? And still 46 versus 48?
"If they're powerful enough to manipulate gravity to get here, wouldn't they have advanced anti-gravity mining equipment? What possible need would they have for primates with chisels?"
This I have always had problems with too. Although I highly appreciate the "12th planet" I'm not convinced about the "gold mining" part. I believe that the Sitchin's theory will be elaborated one day and the reason behind the genetic manipulation will appear to be much more complicated.
You can make an experiment - take a deep look at the human race and notice how unique and unfitting we all are to this planet. We're the only species that rely on intellect to survive! Human females are the only ones who fill pain while give birth! Did you know that? We are the only species who have fussed chromosomes so that we could have animal instincts in order to survive the environment and human intellect which to keep our origins. We are physically animals and mentally humans. One of it's kind. As long as we have existed, we've been trying to suppress the animal inside us by turning all that struggle into philosophy, science, art, literature and epic stories about spiritual enlightenment and love. We are the only species that have bipolar perception of the world: good and bad, ugly and beautiful, stupid and smart etc. Why? It's easy. It's because we are bipolar beings ourselves. We have both worlds inside us. We are hybrids! Ying Yang's philosophy states that nothing is pure white or pure black. And it's half wrong - every other creature on this planet can be pure black and pure white. We are the ones that CAN'T! Remember that.


-----

In conclusion: what we, the AAT theorists may be wrong about is what the mainstream science and religion are 100% wrong about!

Greetings!
Nikola

[Ace Rimmer]

I have no idea how much you have looked around on the forum theseeker, but this is an interesting thread, some of our thoughts, what we feel is the best evidence out there.

[url=http://www.legendarytimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598]Top 5 AA evidence
[/url]
One of many threads about Puma Puka
Puma Punku

[Gemini]

Just wanted to add - there are Ancient Civilizations with Advanced Technology Theorists that propose we were very advanced and then something happened to us and wiped out a lot of things, some technology survived but eventually stopped working, and we started over. No ETs involved.

Maybe something like this, at the beginning of this clip, first minute or two. Was technology used here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXbBEMngI8

[Ace Rimmer]

Just wanted to add - there are Ancient Civilizations with Advanced Technology Theorists that propose we were very advanced and then something happened to us and wiped out a lot of things, some technology survived but eventually stopped working, and we started over. No ETs involved.

Maybe something like this, at the beginning of this clip, first minute or two. Was technology used here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXbBEMngI8

I think that is a real possibility as well, but it still begs the question, how did we get here? We do not belong here.
When you see some of the artifacts that have been found it is obvious we have been here a very long time.

http://www.hallofthegods.org/articles/e ... ology.html

Good stuff Nikola, well everybody, on up the line.

[Nikola]

We do not belong here.

Why is it so hard for people to notice that?
This is the thing that is bothering me more than any pyramid or sophisticated structure.

[Pons Asinorum]

Why is rational discourse essentially not possible here?

Respectfully and as a skeptic to AAT, I have had some rational debates with some members of this forum-- of course in this forum the number of AAT proponents is quite high, so some irrational counter-arguments are bound to occur, but to say or imply rational debate cannot occur in this forum is a falsehood.

IMHO, AAT is not a theory in the scientific sense --it does not require a standard model with a rigid framework of logic and verifiable evidence. Various adherents have various beliefs that are often mutually exclusive. At its core, AAT is a belief system, which is no different than science or religion (as all have a set of given assumptions upon which they are based). In short, AAT is not a subset of science or religion, but a completely different and independent belief system with its own axioms.

Insisting on answers from one belief system to questions from a different belief system is unlikely to satisfy as the basic axioms of the two belief systems are different.

Everybody seems to think that a different viewpoint means either

a. You are a sheep
b. You are a government shill or agent
c. You are blind because everything is so obvious
d. You are Giorgio Tsoukalos's evil alter ego. ;P

That is false as not everyone holds those opinions with those they disagree (indeed, the use of the term "Everybody" is a straw man fallacy).

There may be some of that, but in my experience not "everybody". As forums go, this is one is quite friendly (especially remarkable in light of the fact that science, religion, and politics are discussed routinely).

[Theory]

If the aliens have the ability to manipulate gravity and the fabric of space/time in order to travel the necessary faster than light speed to visit earth, you really think they would be flying around in primitive airplane-like craft that have wings and normal propulsion? What possible need would they have for wings and a fuselage when they can manipulate gravity?

Who says all aliens during that time could manipulate gravity and so on? Maybe there are some who are closer to us than you think or even we think, there for they wouldn't need to travel at the speed of light and what not. But that is just a theory just like it being a bug is your theory.

I also agree with Metaluna and most of the others. What may be illogical to you may be logical to someone else and vise versa.

[Believer]

I want to touch upon one particular general belief - you draw what you see, and you speak what you see, of coyrse allowing for some exaggeration and wiggle room.

In the ancient Indian texts such as the Mahabharata, devastating weapons, "weapons of the Gods", is mentioned and how the "Gods" allowed some very particular "demi Gods" usage of these weapons. These are weapons like the Brahmastra, Pashupatastra, Narayanastra; weapons that could wreak havoc if used and when the demi-Gods did want to use these weapons, the "Gods" appeared in the "sky" to advice them against the use of these weapons in war, for these were weapons meant only for the advancement of mankind and not to settle wars and battles. These weapons caused havoc for miles around and mankind suffered terribly when these were used. Yet, the Mahabahrata was written down in 3000BC (or 7000 BC depending upon which version you want to believe in) when man hadn't progressed much beyond bows and arrows.
Yet, we are supposed to believe that somehow the ancients dreamt up all these in marijuana fuelled dreams

The Mahabharata mentions men born outside of the uterus (warrior saint Drona) yet test tube babies are a modern invention; it mentions men who "lived" for hundreds of years and founded cities some of which were submerged (Dwaraka for example which was proved to exist in the 80's). There is mention of "men" who walked "several feet above the ground" by virtue of their truthfulness (Yudhistra), yet men of that age did not even know what gravity was, let alone try to beat it; there is mention of the "Lord" revealing himself in "His full splendour" to a chosen few but men of that age had little idea of the cosmos and all that surrounds us; it talks about warriors who could finish off entire armies on their own; it lists precise positions of stars and planets that are impossible to imagine without modern astrology software; it talks about "saints" and holy men who could predict the future accurately even in the days when there were no "psychics" looking to drum up business.

Sorry, but the past contains way too many historical records of very weird accounts that cannot just be explained away by means of pot fuelled fantasies and dreams. We are willing to accept pictures of men hauling up stones in Egypt, but we are not willing to accept pictures of strange crafts and weird looking aliens drawn by the same people.

Why this selective acceptance? Christianity destroyed a very large part of ancient knowledge (and whatever is left over is being destroyed by Islam) and it really is a shame that educated human beings like us indulge in selective acceptance and discarding anything that doesn't fit in with the "world view". Many scientists may be people of science but the idea of religion is very hard to let go, hence many of their interpretations is probably coloured by their religious upbringing, Even today, we are discovering species that we knew nothing about and did not believe in, yet just because we have forgotten history it simply does not exist? 30 years back, we refused to believe that there could be other planets, leave alone entire solar systems yet we now know to the contrary.

Truly sad.
Man's arrogance knows no bounds

[lunarwing]

Wow... Seeker sure got ya'lls dander up.

Seeker... everyone here has their own take on things. We do not always agree.... but that is a good thing. We are constantly throwing theories up against the wall and see what sticks. I have been on forums where everyone agrees on everything.... and man, it is frigging boring. There is no intellectual debate at all.

You can brouse the threads and see our individual theories.... but we have not heard your theories yet. So if you have a different take on the ancient astronaut theory.... lets hear it.... and let the civil debate begin.

[Ace Rimmer]

Yeah, when I saw the first reply I actually grinned, not realizing there was someone with your user name. I did search and read the various topics, but they all basically espouse the same viewpoint: the aliens did it. None of them ever offer a different viewpoint, which is not surprising given the nature of this forum. Why is rational discourse essentially not possible here? Everybody seems to think that a different viewpoint means either

a. You are a sheep
b. You are a government shill or agent
c. You are blind because everything is so obvious
d. You are Giorgio Tsoukalos's evil alter ego. ;P

Seriously, does anyone have any answers to my questions?

You do say you understand the nature of this forum, but to clear up any confusion as to why so many of us are liked minded please read this:

[url=http://www.legendarytimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645]This Forum was Created for Legendary Times Magazine Members
[/url]

[goldenstar]

Oh, I forgot to mention - Occam's Razor - watch the movie "Contact" with Helen Hunt.

SACRILEGE!!! Every die hard Contact fan (for which I am certainly one), KNOWS that Jodi Foster played in Contact....NOT Helen Hunt! Just kiddin', it was JF but just wanted to fun with you!

Hey there.
First off, congratulations for questioning things. No matter what, this is the way of the truth, brother.

1. No one can be sure about the intentions of the higher intelligent creatures which were messing around with our prehistoric ancestors. So "helping the israelites and building the pyramids" is not proven to be correct, therefore no conclusions should be made out of it. And "they were so benevolent" shouldn't be taken into account because it's a pure guess.

Where did they go? In the kingdom of heaven
Seriously, are you asking that?

2. The flayer is real, undeniable evidence that someone long time ago was very well aware of the aerodynamics. And no, it doesn't share the look of any of the planet earth's animal species. If it is an insect model, that means that the master crafter who built it, must've had seen it with his eyes to copy it's features onto the sculpture. Have such species been discovered around or close to the area where the flayer had been found? No.
Show me the insect or the bird model and i'll believe you.

3. The pyramids.
Show me that evidence! I mean it. Show me.
Show me the frescoes where the slaves are tugging blocks with varying weight of 2 to 100 tons. Both limestone and granite. Show the frescoes of slaves putting blocks on the pyramid. Where are those cranes you're mentioning? Have you seen how the crane that can lift 200 tons today looks like?
Let's say that they indeed were able to cut, bring and set in place a 3 ton block every 2 minutes(which is more ridiculous than any small grey aliens theory btw) - where is the proof of that technology? Where are their cranes and pulleys?
"The pharaohs had hundreds of thousands of workers available and a huge food surplus every year" were able only to build ugly, small and bent out of shape structures made with clay bricks in order to mimic the gods perfection. The Joser's Pyramid for example - go and just look at the materials the egyptians used there to upgrade on top of the older and perfect foundation, and you'll understand. And what specifically the mastabas prove? How many pharaohs were found inside of the pyramids sarcophaguses? But so called "historical records" still claim that those megalithic structures are tombs! On what basis? There is a manuscript in the museum in Cairo explaining how Khufu had been trying to break into the great pyramid long time before Al'Mamun succeeded. But no one pays attention to that.
What AAT theorists state is that aliens COULD and most PROBABLY were intervening in some way. No one is saying that they and they alone built it.
The pyramids are the worst case scenario and the worst nightmare when it comes to supporting the mainstream stupidity.

4. We do not have any evidence of evolutionary progression. What do we have is a huge gap between our kind and the alleged hominid. They have 48 chromosomes and we have 46! Explain this with evolution, please! Because if you trace back all the hominids - they have always had 48. And suddenly we pop out with 46. I guess you have heard of a missing link. Why would there be a missing link at all if the science has it explained already? And still 46 versus 48?
"If they're powerful enough to manipulate gravity to get here, wouldn't they have advanced anti-gravity mining equipment? What possible need would they have for primates with chisels?"
This I have always had problems with too. Although I highly appreciate the "12th planet" I'm not convinced about the "gold mining" part. I believe that the Sitchin's theory will be elaborated one day and the reason behind the genetic manipulation will appear to be much more complicated.
You can make an experiment - take a deep look at the human race and notice how unique and unfitting we all are to this planet. We're the only species that rely on intellect to survive! Human females are the only ones who fill pain while give birth! Did you know that? We are the only species who have fussed chromosomes so that we could have animal instincts in order to survive the environment and human intellect which to keep our origins. We are physically animals and mentally humans. One of it's kind. As long as we have existed, we've been trying to suppress the animal inside us by turning all that struggle into philosophy, science, art, literature and epic stories about spiritual enlightenment and love. We are the only species that have bipolar perception of the world: good and bad, ugly and beautiful, stupid and smart etc. Why? It's easy. It's because we are bipolar beings ourselves. We have both worlds inside us. We are hybrids! Ying Yang's philosophy states that nothing is pure white or pure black. And it's half wrong - every other creature on this planet can be pure black and pure white. We are the ones that CAN'T! Remember that.


-----

In conclusion: what we, the AAT theorists may be wrong about is what the mainstream science and religion are 100% wrong about!

Greetings!
Nikola

Such a great post!!

[lunarwing]

In conclusion: what we, the AAT theorists may be wrong about is what the mainstream science and religion are 100% wrong about!

+1


Man has always described the things around him by "What they do" and "What they look like". We still do it today... it's a behavior that doesn't change.

Example... Air-plane, Auto-mobile, Rocket-ship, Machine-gun, Tele-vision.

So what is so strange about a early man saying something like Firey-chariot or Pillar-of-fire?

[theseeker]

#2 Isn't it *FAR* more likely a model of a unique insect? - I truly believe there are so MANY life forms in the universe that even WE cannot imagine what they look like. Therefore, if manlike or insect like has visited us, well then, we can recognize them in a familiar fashion. Don't limit yourself to thinking they only look one certain way. We have ancient art to show us what they were seeing; if they saw human like that's what they drew. For all we know there is probably a planet filled with robots.

Okay, I see what you're saying, but this still doesn't answer why a civilization with technology that can manipulate gravity would need a craft that has wings and a fuselage. Now, these interstellar beings would have to possess this ability to visit earth, given that even a single light year is far greater a distance than we can really even comprehend. If you're implying that perhaps it was the aliens that looked like the "gold flyer", then let's go back to which is simpler and more likely: Alien entities with wings that can manipulate space/time and gravity and happen to look just like insects on earth, or the flyer actually being modeled on an insect, complete with antennae.

#3... monumental tasks so not require alien intervention. - You mention that the pyramids are clearly documented - where is the documentation? If there was documentation at hand there would be no mystery. You are right, the Great Wall of China is a huge task along with the pyramids; again we have to look at the means of documentation - art, wall paintings, carvings... on and on. If the means of paper documentation is unavailable we look to the stone walls. They have UFO craft and alien looking creatures on them. China also shows many paintings, stories, and art showing UFO and alien encounters.

Okay, you're right -- the techniques and methods of the pyramids aren't really completely understood. Fair enough. But if ancient man can build monuments even bigger and more complex than the pyramids, such as the great wall of china (and this *IS* enormously well-documented), then why not the pyramids as well?

#4 why would they have primates with chisels? - Again I refer back to the most puzzling history book, the Bible. It clearly shows there are different types of humans on the earth when Adam and Eve were created; why were they here? Why the need to create more? Still

Let me preface this by saying I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs. That being said, the bible is far from being a historical record, just like all other religious books. They are filled with spiritual answers, not necessarily factual ones. Each book has fantastical tales that defy all logic, such as Noah's Ark. The weight of the insects alone on a boat would necessitate it be larger than anything we could even build today.

what facts is everyone looking for? Many documents (they best they knew how) from many nations of UFO or aliens on walls, caves and paintings? Or does one require a spaceship to land in front of them and an alien walk out and shake their hand?

But couldn't these drawings just as likely be spiritual visions, mythical tales to explain nature, religious creation myths, etc.?

We can take this further and say - What proof do we have that the earth is really floating in space - Have you seen it for yourself? I haven't; I go by the documentation I have been provided with. Will you accept the pictures from NASA or do you need to be flown there to see for yourself?

Just as I have never seen an atom, deductive logic and the laws of science dictate that this is the case. If we are able to create mathematical models of physics, math, chemistry, etc. then we need not actually "see" these things, as we can model their occurrences and accurately predict their behavior, just as we can accurately understand and predict the results of chemical interactions.

Nobody is going to attack you, you are entitled to your questions because quite frankly these were the same questions I had years ago. Questioning a theory is a good thing - it gets us thinking. It's all good, and I look forward to the other questions.

Thank you. I agree completely!

I do find it fascinating that you think we have flawed theories, absurd ideas and are illogical and still you seek answers from us.

Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. I see many flaws with many of these theories, but I never called them absurd. I seek answers from you so that I can learn. If any of you can explain my concerns or the problems I see, then I think we have both gained.

But equally, must alien aircraft always be saucers? Why can't a fuselage and wing plane be able to distort gravity? Just because we can't with our technology doesn't mean someone else can't either. And remember that one can't always replicate something down to the T in pictures - not even Da Vinci.

A craft with wings and fuselage probably could manipulate gravity. But what would be the point? If they can manipulate gravity, then there would be absolutely no need for wings or a fuselage, as they do not require lift, and no need for aerodynamic considerations.

[Ace Rimmer]

Let me preface this by saying I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs. That being said, the bible is far from being a historical record, just like all other religious books. They are filled with spiritual answers, not necessarily factual ones. Each book has fantastical tales that defy all logic, such as Noah's Ark. The weight of the insects alone on a boat would necessitate it be larger than anything we could even build today

On the contrary, I think the Bible is one of our best historical records along with other ancient texts.

The Mahabharata is a veritable gold mine of information relating to conflicts between gods who are said to have settled their differences apparently using weapons as lethal as those we have now. Apart from 'blazing missiles', the poem records the use of other deadly weapons. 'Indra's Dart' (Indravajra) operated via a circular 'reflector'. When switched on, it produced a 'shaft of light' which, when focused on any target, immediately 'consumed it with its power'

I don't think ancient people were science fiction writers, they were writing down what they were seeing, what was going on in their world.

Noah's Ark could have been a a DNA bank. And there is evidence all over the world of a great flood, or the very least waters rising a considerable amount all over the globe. More submerged cites are being found all the time.

Then there is also the The Water Vapor Canopy Theory, if you are not familiar with it here. Sorry I am at work and pressed for time. LOL

http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/FIRM/RF.p ... anopy.html

[angeloneastralseed]

I think the consensus is that the "gold flyer" was a machine used by the people of earth, not the mode of transportation from planet to planet by the aliens.

The lack of documentation on the pyramids is the mystery. I wouldn't say that the Great Wall of China is "Far More" difficult than the pyramids. I can't really comment on the task of the Great Wall of china since I have not reviewed the docs., but I would think the tasks are close to equal and probably contain some mysteries too.

Again a persons belief on things is their own and I truly believe the Bible IS a history book. Noah's Ark may not be what you think it is - a big boat with animals and insects on it. It may have been a DNA lab in which case, yes all the DNA could fit in that size of a ship. We have a Noah's Ark right now with many many DNA samples of many species. The wonderful thing about life is that you don't have to take things so simple and literal.

I guess it is possible that some drawings are spiritual visions and mythical tales, but how do you explain the same picture, the same story, the same ideas popping up around the world in a time when communication was seriously hampered?

The laws of our science may not apply in the entire universe. Scientists are baffled at some of the discoveries that defy our scientific logic. Not all applies all the time. As we discover new things we do "see" them, and we should never limit ourselves to what we already know. It's like taking one class in college and stating you now know it all - many discoveries will only add to our knowledge of the working universe; not all will apply to us, such as not all of ours will apply elsewhere.

Keep asking questions because there is no doubt in my mind I will learn some things too.

[theseeker]

Hey there.
First off, congratulations for questioning things. No matter what, this is the way of the truth, brother.

Thanks. I couldn't agree more with you. That's why I'm here, so we can both (in a collective sense) learn more from each other.

1. No one can be sure about the intentions of the higher intelligent creatures which were messing around with our prehistoric ancestors. So "helping the israelites and building the pyramids" is not proven to be correct, therefore no conclusions should be made out of it. And "they were so benevolent" shouldn't be taken into account because it's a pure guess.

I agree as well. I merely took the israelite and pyramid examples from the interviews with Tsoukalos on TV and the discourse on a ton of the posts here. A great many here seem to believe that the pyramids couldn't have been built without alien assistance.

2. The flayer is real, undeniable evidence that someone long time ago was very well aware of the aerodynamics. And no, it doesn't share the look of any of the planet earth's animal species. If it is an insect model, that means that the master crafter who built it, must've had seen it with his eyes to copy it's features onto the sculpture. Have such species been discovered around or close to the area where the flayer had been found?

Insects by nature are aerodynamic in order for them to fly. That insect may not have been found, but it is estimated that we are only aware of less than 20% of all the insects out there. The flyer has antennae and wings, just like an insect. Which is simpler and more likely: that aliens came here and used craft with wings and fuselage that would be unnecessary if they could manipulate gravity, or that it is a model of an insect that looks almost exactly like thousands of other insects?

3. The pyramids.
Show me that evidence! I mean it. Show me.
Show me the frescoes where the slaves are tugging blocks with varying weight of 2 to 100 tons. Both limestone and granite. Show the frescoes of slaves putting blocks on the pyramid. Where are those cranes you're mentioning? Have you seen how the crane that can lift 200 tons today looks like?

Look at the fresco from the tomb of Djehutihotep. It illustrates 172 men pulling an alabaster statue of him, that by proportion and density would way 60 tons, on a sledge. A bigger picture here: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/702/her01.jpg and a close-up here: http://egyptologist.org/discus/messages/41/8839.jpg

Combine that with sleds, ramps, and sand pits and they definitely could have moved such large stones, just as many other cultures have: the israelites, indians, meso-americans, etc.

"The pharaohs had hundreds of thousands of workers available and a huge food surplus every year" were able only to build ugly, small and bent out of shape structures made with clay bricks in order to mimic the gods perfection. The Joser's Pyramid for example - go and just look at the materials the egyptians used there to upgrade on top of the older and perfect foundation, and you'll understand. And what specifically the mastabas prove? How many pharaohs were found inside of the pyramids sarcophaguses? But so called "historical records" still claim that those megalithic structures are tombs! On what basis? There is a manuscript in the museum in Cairo explaining how Khufu had been trying to break into the great pyramid long time before Al'Mamun succeeded. But no one pays attention to that.

Djoser's pyramid is a great example. Look at the clear progression from burial mounds, larger burial mounds, then mub-brick mounds, stone mounds, then the step pyramid, bent pyramid, and a regular pyramid, and the larger and larger version of the same. It shows a clear progression of technology and ability. If the aliens helped them or built it, there would be no need for any progression. It would simply be a stone pyramid from the beginning. Why would aliens need to experiment to build one of the fundamental objects? They wouldn't. Only man would need to experiment and increase their understanding, as shown by the clear progression.

The pyramids are the worst case scenario and the worst nightmare when it comes to supporting the mainstream stupidity.

So then why have they found the burial grounds of thousands of workers around the pyramid complexes. Why the huge-scale brewing and cooking apparatuses? Why the graffiti of workers on the largest and often least-accessible stones? If the aliens did it, all of these would be unnecessary, but yet they exist. Why?

4. We do not have any evidence of evolutionary progression. What do we have is a huge gap between our kind and the alleged hominid. They have 48 chromosomes and we have 46! Explain this with evolution, please! Because if you trace back all the hominids - they have always had 48. And suddenly we pop out with 46. I guess you have heard of a missing link. Why would there be a missing link at all if the science has it explained already? And still 46 versus 48?

Actually the evidence is overwhelming. there is a missing link because not all of the evidence has been found. Evolution works both ways: not just an increase in chromosomes but also a decrease as genetic material becomes more information-dense, unneeded traits such as full body hair and slanted foreheads disappear. If we came from a targeted mutation, then again why do neanderthals exist? Why do we share 99% of our genetic information with primates? Why have primate fossils been found from about 28 million years ago onward with increasingly human-like features?

You can make an experiment - take a deep look at the human race and notice how unique and unfitting we all are to this planet. We're the only species that rely on intellect to survive! Human females are the only ones who fill pain while give birth! Did you know that?

Both of those are untrue. Mostly all mammals experience pain during child birth, all though admittedly ours is longer than most others. The struture of their nervous system and the fact that they have the same type of pain fibers as we do validates this. Also, plenty of other animals rely on intellect to survive. Primates will barter food for sex. They can use tools to gather food, such as sticks to pull out honey or insects from holes. They have the basics of culture, including warfare, social hierarchy, and collective nurturing of young.

good and bad, ugly and beautiful, stupid and smart etc. Why? It's easy. It's because we are bipolar beings ourselves. We have both worlds inside us.

You really believe that? Wow. Read any classic philosopher, go view art in any form, hell just read the internet on myriad topics. There is an enormous range of expressions and beliefs, and bipolar is but a mere drop in the bucket.

Who says all aliens during that time could manipulate gravity and so on? Maybe there are some who are closer to us than you think or even we think, there for they wouldn't need to travel at the speed of light and what not. But that is just a theory just like it being a bug is your theory.

The distances are so vast that it would necessitate faster-than-light travel. Even if the distance were only ten light years, which is like the width of an atom on a universal scale, and the aliens could travel at 70% the speed of light, it would take them about 14 1/3 years *each way*. This is not feasible.

I also agree with Metaluna and most of the others. What may be illogical to you may be logical to someone else and vise versa.

Agreed. That's why I'm asking these questions.

[lunarwing]

That being said, the bible is far from being a historical record, just like all other religious books. They are filled with spiritual answers, not necessarily factual ones.

This opinion tells me you are the type of person that is afraid of the Bible only because you do not like religion.... and I would bet the farm you haven't had one in your hands in a very long time.... if at all... and anything you know about it is from a secular source second hand.

If you would ignore the religious aspect, and paid more attention to the many archological discoveries in the eastern Med lately... you could not say that "the Bible is far from being a history book." Every other day they are finding things that colaborate what is in the Bible. Many archologists use the Bible to start their projects. If you only watch or read secular media... of course you won't know these things.... because they delibertly avoid these storys.

Sure... the Bible has things in it that advise one to live a clean and honorable life. Most secularists would rather live a life with no limitations... the "if it feels good, do it" no matter what the consequences. But if you did take the time.... and had a open mind.... you'd find the Bible is full of stories that align themselves with the ancient astronaut theory.

I can list quite a few scientific principals that are in the Bible that scientists only recently have discovered. So that tells me the Bible was way ahead of science. If you really want to learn something and find some answers to your questions... read a Bible. If you do not want to... quit dogging it out.

[Ace Rimmer]

It's pretty hard to compare the prescision of the great pyramid at Giza (well all 3 of them) with the Pyramid of Djoser. It is a good example of the Egyptians trying to build one without help from somebody.

[lunarwing]

The scientists think that Dozer is older than the Giza Complex. To me, it looks like someone tried to copy the Great Pyramid without a clue how the Great Pyramid was constructed.

[Ace Rimmer]

+1 Lunarwing

The distances are so vast that it would necessitate faster-than-light travel. Even if the distance were only ten light years, which is like the width of an atom on a universal scale, and the aliens could travel at 70% the speed of light, it would take them about 14 1/3 years *each way*. This is not feasible.

How do we know what is feasible.

Folding-space, folding-time, wormholes, space portals.....

[theseeker]

[b]This opinion tells me you are the type of person that is afraid of the Bible only because you do not like religion.... and I would bet the farm you haven't had one in your hands in a very long time.... if at all... and anything you know about it is from a secular source second hand.

You opinion tells me that you really like to make assumptions about people you know nothing about because they dare question whether religious texts serve as historical records. Not only have I read the Bible (well, the new testament) several times, I have also read the koran (once, but a *long* time ago) and the Hindu texts more times than I can count. Not only that, but I pray and sing devotionals *every* single day without failure with my family, usually around 7pm but sometimes an hour or two later. Now, when do I get your farm?

If you would ignore the religious aspect, and paid more attention to the many archological discoveries in the eastern Med lately... you could not say that "the Bible is far from being a history book." Every other day they are finding things that colaborate what is in the Bible. Many archologists use the Bible to start their projects. If you only watch or read secular media... of course you won't know these things.... because they delibertly avoid these storys.

Of course, this must all be some "liberal conspiracy". You're correct, the news does sometime have stories about archaeological evidence being uncovered that supports biblical events. But that does not make it a historical record. It's primary function is that of a spiritual guide to commune with God and how to live a good life. I'm not going to try and debate the historical nature of religious texts with you, because it seems clear that you cannot be objective about it and will only take it as a personal attack on your beliefs. That's why I deliberately prefaced my comments.

[Ace Rimmer]

AAT and religion really go hand in hand, your can say God or Gods, but singular or pural, whatever he or they were, they were Aliens.

Seeker (I'll drop the "the" if I may) do you believe in creationism ? I know that covers the whole ball of wax, or evolution in regards to the origin of man, or heck everything.
But let me tell you brother I am still trying to figure out how we got here, so I am not going to throw the earth, the universe and all life into the mix.

If I had to label myself I'd go with Old Earth Vedic Creationist but I would substitute "God" with Gods. I believe in a very ancient Earth and I believe that life was specially created by "Gods/Aliens". I also believe Bible texts are telling it like it was.

After 40 some years of reading and thinking, it all makes perfect sense to me, all the dots are connected.

[leathaface]

I think the only point that hasn't been answered in any of the discussions on this board is the one raised about the crafts - why must aliens, who can bend space and time, have planes like the one's we have with fuselages and wings.

i think that bending space and time isnt really efficient when u want to travel around/explore our planet,so they used slower aircrafts to fly around earth.

look at it this way,one of the apollo mission took along the lunar rover when the technology at the time clearly surpassed a "car" that could reach a top speed of 8 mph but it was better then orbiting the planet at thousands of mph.
i think those airplanes and saucers the ancient people saw, and people are still seeing, are kinda like our lunar rover....just vehicles that allowed them to explore the planet in a more efficient way.

[Nikola]

A great many here seem to believe that the pyramids couldn't have been built without alien assistance.

The pyramids couldn't have been built without a highly advanced technology. Whether it came from outer space or it was inherited from Atlantians - doesn't matter. I'm ok with both:) But it's absolutely ridiculous to believe that those primitive workers could have lifted such heavy blocks; be so precise when stacking em up and at the same time the only tools they had were made of copper and stone or clay. The structure of the great pyramids, for example, is so precise and so fine that it doesn't need one to have a PhD to understand how impossible it was for ancient egyptians to achieve it. Even today it's impossible for us to build the great pyramid with such precision. Plus there are tons of evidence of advanced machines that have been used there: grooves, cuts, bumps, interlocking elements, and enormous blocks which were threated as we today would threat hot butter!

That insect may not have been found, but it is estimated that we are only aware of less than 20% of all the insects out there.

This is self-contradictory. If only 20% were discovered and catalogued, where the notion of the flyer being insect have come from? Isn't it obvious that one has to see the original in order to make art out of it? And I'm asking again: where is the original? :) Or is this just another science dogma, based on "most comfortable explanation"

The flyer has antennae and wings, just like an insect.

And one more feature that no insect on earth has:

How is this exactly an insect? :)
And one more thing - my theory is that this statue was made after some shaman took a mind altering mushroom or potion - he just looked into the future and saw this. Because you are right for one thing - no highly advanced aliens would need a purely human technology to fly.

Look at the fresco from the tomb of Djehutihotep. It illustrates 172 men pulling an alabaster statue of him, that by proportion and density would way 60 tons, on a sledge. A bigger picture here: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/702/her01.jpg and a close-up here: http://egyptologist.org/discus/messages/41/8839.jpg

That is not the real painting - it's a reproduction made somewhere near the end of 19th century.

Here is how the real wall painting looks like:

Do you see slaves pulling a 60 ton statue? Well, I don't.
The historians claim the frescoe was "vandalized" just as "the king chamber was robbed" - it's just another manifestation of simple minded dogmatics who are unable to admit the truth. I pretty much suspect that they have damaged it themselves to conceal something that could shake their believes?! But it's just a thought:)
Once again: there is no grain of evidence pointing out that the ancient egyptians were able to build the pyramids by themselves. Even if they were having computers and electronics they woudln't be able to construct them. And all they actually had were copper chisels, fibre ropes and stone hammers.
No sense at all.

Djoser's pyramid is a great example. Look at the clear progression from burial mounds, larger burial mounds, then mub-brick mounds, stone mounds, then the step pyramid, bent pyramid, and a regular pyramid, and the larger and larger version of the same. It shows a clear progression of technology and ability.

There is no smooth transition between technologies. There is a huge gap between the two technologies. The same goes for mayans, aztecs and incas.
Take a look:

If we came from a targeted mutation, then again why do neanderthals exist?

Because they still exist today. And they are almost extinct. I believe you call them sasquatch or something.
On the other hand - the gap between the neanderthals and humans is so big that there is no sign of transition: the size, the muscles, the forehead, the chin, the eyebrow area and 48 chromosomes - there is no middle ground at all :) The scientists call it "The missing link"... there is no such thing, they're looking for the boogie man, the easter bunny etc ;)

Why do we share 99% of our genetic information with primates? Why have primate fossils been found from about 28 million years ago onward with increasingly human-like features?

Only 1% difference is quite enough to have two absolutely different creatures!

Code: Select all

Mostly all mammals experience pain during child birth, all though admittedly ours is longer than most others.

Although it is disputable, I do not agree. I'm speaking about pain, not the small discomfort.

Also, plenty of other animals rely on intellect to survive. Primates will barter food for sex.

And how does that exactly indicate of intellect? :)

They can use tools to gather food, such as sticks to pull out honey or insects from holes

Lions and leopards could prowl for hours until they attack, but that doesn't mean that they can think strategically ;) It's all instincts, mate.
Even when we humans write poems about our beloved ones - it's out of instinct. The real intellect is when you devote yourself to something that has nothing to do with surviving or based on an instinct. But I don't think we're there yet. Not entirely though. :)

You really believe that? Wow. Read any classic philosopher, go view art in any form, hell just read the internet on myriad topics. There is an enormous range of expressions and beliefs, and bipolar is but a mere drop in the bucket.

Yes, I do. The core of every art or human creativity product is based on duality. You always have the protagonist and the antagonist - it's embedded in every literature. In the visual arts - there is always dark and bright; warm and cold colors; and according to the way you're going to use them, it changes the whole perception. In the music - minor and major scales - it's the core of the music grammar. In physics and mathematics - plus and minus; division and multiplication. In philosophy - beginning and end. Geography - latitude and longitude, east and west, north and south. Even every color that your eyes can see is based on a complicated interaction between the light and the dark.
How can you tell the good guy from the evil guy? Only when they both exist. And that applies to every aspect of our life. There is no good without evil; no light without darkness; no smart without stupid; no plus without minus etc, etc, etc.
Everything else is just an illusion caused by a complicated blending of every two poles of perception.

Greetings,
Nikola

[lunarwing]

Nikola... another good example of what you are showing us is at the Temple of Jupiter.... the Baalbek Trilithon. You can clearly notice the difference between the Trilithon stones and the smaller ones that the Romans added at a later date.




Seeker... it is always harder to feel people out on a computer than it is face to face.... and 99% of the folks that I do meet face to face that avoid the Bible like a plague and have assuptions about it (like yourself)... have never even read it. If you are that 1 out of 99.... good for you brother. But as you said, you have only read the New Testament. That is like reading the last third of a history book and saying the whole book was invalid. Not very scientific.

Now those people who say they have read the NT only.... tend to have read it in the context of a organized religion or church. Catholic, Protestant, etc etc. And most of the time... they haven't really read it.... but only the few verses that their priest, minister, or pastor told them to read. If you dislike religion because of a terrible experience within a organized religious point of view.... I can't blame you.... but you can't let that experience keep you from a very good source of information.

The NT is where you find basically all the religious churchy stuff.... the Old Testament is where you find most of the ancient astronaut stuff.

You could have used a excuse why you do not think the Bible is valid... like... we have no proof that these things happened.... but you gave yourself away saying it was religion that it is why you don't think it's valid.
And that my friend is a sad excuse not to explore the possiblities.

And since you haven't read the Old Testament.... I get to keep my farm.