Freemasons or Masons

[Stonehenge]

There's almost nothing in Masonry that he couldn't have talked about if he wanted to.

Jim

Telling masonic secrets is punishable and in pretty gruesome ways as you must know. Most of the time it's disembowelment or something along those lines. So if he felt he truly knew some secret, and was a stickler enough for the rules that he feared breaking them, then he couldn't really talk.

I HOPE you're putting me on!

Jim

[Moon]

My Grandfather was not one to talk to us kids about anything he did. So it was a personality trait, not a secrets of the Freemasons thing.

I wasn't too interested in the group so I did not ask anyways. As an adult, I would of asked now.

[Stonehenge]

My Grandfather was not one to talk to us kids about anything he did. So it was a personality trait, not a secrets of the Freemasons thing.

I wasn't too interested in the group so I did not ask anyways. As an adult, I would of asked now.

The best way I ever heard of expressing it was via an analogy:

"Think of everything you (as an experienced Mason) know about Masonry as being like a hangar for dirigibles."

"Think of the portion of it that you're supposed to keep secret as comparing with what you know about it as a football compares with that hangar for dirigibles."

Basically, you can't reveal passwords, handshakes, obligations, and specifically what occurs during the degrees.

Jim

P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I'm a Master Mason: Past Master at Blue Lodge: Past High Priest at Chapter (York Rite): Past Commander of Commandery (York Rite): and a 32nd degree, Knight Commander of the Court of Honor in the Scottish Rite.

[upperworld]

Stonehenge, i was sorta being serious. I know that during the ceremonies (if they are called that, excuse my terminology) as you work up the degree ladder there are passages that are read about telling non masons what you have learned and the gruesome punishments that will befall you for betraying the craft. However, i also realize that is just a ceremony and the barbaric punishments may date back hundreds of years but are not anything that would happen today.

[Stonehenge]

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that gruesome penalties ARE mentioned in Masonic obligations - - consider this as an alternative explanation:

"If you were to reveal the secrets of our Craft to outsiders, may your conscience trouble your heart, to the same extent that infliction of a gruesome penalty would trouble your body."

Jim

[upperworld]

I'm not arguing that Stonehenge, though i'm not a mason. Without outting anyone i can safely say i have a close friend who is a mason at a blue lodge (not a clandestine rogue lodge) that i get my information from. So my conscience of heart and mind is clean as a whistle.

[mahalla2]

I just read that John Wilkes Booth was a 33rd degree mason - Is that true?

[Stonehenge]

I don't know: where did you read that?

Jim

[mahalla2]

I don't know: where did you read that?

Jim

http://www.whale.to/b/33.html

[Stonehenge]

I don't know: where did you read that?

Jim

http://www.whale.to/b/33.html

Pretty ludicrous!

Helena Petrovna Blavatsky a 33rd degree Mason? Helena was no beauty queen, but she was a woman: women can't be Masons!

Jesse James a 33rd? You get the 33rd for years of public service or years of service to Masonry. What did JJ get his? For robbing banks?

Every President but Kennedy and Lincoln a Mason? Never heard that one before.

If you're interested, though, all of this could be verified or refuted by checking with the Scottish Rite in Washington, D.C.


Jim

[mahalla2]

[/quote]


If you're interested, though, all of this could be verified or refuted by checking with the Scottish Rite in Washington, D.C.


Jim[/quote]

okay - well, you asked where I read it and John Wilkes Booth did pose for a photograph with his hand hidden inside his jacket just like George Washington and Napoleon's famous portraits so it definitely made me wonder and frankly I don't trust the powers that be in Washington D.C.

[Stonehenge]

That was a common way of posing for a photo in that era. What does it have to do with Masonry?

Jim

[mahalla2]

That was a common way of posing for a photo in that era. What does it have to do with Masonry?

Jim

common way in what era - Napoleon's, George Washington's or John Wilkes Booth?

[Stonehenge]

That was a common way of posing for a photo in that era. What does it have to do with Masonry?

Jim

common way in what era - Napoleon's, George Washington's or John Wilkes Booth?

I can't vouch for (Masonic expression that has crept into the vernacular) having seen any portrits of Washington posing that way: but the end of his era coincided with the beginning of Napoleon's. And I have seen photos of Civil War officers posing that way also: Booth's era.

Jim

[mahalla2]

That was a common way of posing for a photo in that era. What does it have to do with Masonry?

Jim

common way in what era - Napoleon's, George Washington's or John Wilkes Booth?

I can't vouch for (Masonic expression that has crept into the vernacular) having seen any portrits of Washington posing that way: but the end of his era coincided with the beginning of Napoleon's. And I have seen photos of Civil War officers posing that way also: Booth's era.

Jim

sorry, but it all looks fishy to me -

[Stonehenge]

I still don't understand what posing with your hand inside your jacket has to do with the Masonic fraternity.

Jim

[mahalla2]

I still don't understand what posing with your hand inside your jacket has to do with the Masonic fraternity.

Jim

perhaps it symbolizes their connection to a secret society -

[IzzyGumbo]

@Theory

While I don't know much about the Mason, Illuminati either, I also wonder if there is a 'good guy' version of them, as all things in nature are balanced, it would make senses that this also be the case for great 'families' of power.

I do think there is an ancient 'secret' of sorts.

I appreciate reading here.

[mahalla2]

@Theory

While I don't know much about the Mason, Illuminati either, I also wonder if there is a 'good guy' version of them, as all things in nature are balanced, it would make senses that this also be the case for great 'families' of power.

I do think there is an ancient 'secret' of sorts.

I appreciate reading here.

yes, it seems we have the good and the bad in every culture, however, I am not convinced that secret societies of any kind ultimately benefit society. Overall there just seems to be more negative consequences than positive for their existence.

[IzzyGumbo]

PRolly true for "secret" most things.

[mahalla2]

PRolly true for "secret" most things.

yes, especially bad if doing their thing as a secret society interferes with due process of law and the democratic leadership of a country -

[Richard Tipton]

Being a Mason I often hear the outlandish stories and lies(some repeated on this forum). Maybe some clarification is in order.

1. Lucifer means "bringer of light". The Biblical reference wasn't used as a proper noun. The Statue of Liberty is a perfect example.

2. Yes, we have secrets but if you become a Mason to find out those secrets, you'll be dissappointed.

3. Politics and religion are taboo subjects in the lodge, not to be discussed.

4. Most states forbid recruitment of prospective Masons. You have to petition a lodge and be recommended by Brothers inside the lodge. Different states have varying rules as to how many recommendations are required.

5. You must be a man of high moral character and this will be verified by a committee.

There are a lot more lies being spread about masonry, too many to address here. All I can say is to research with an open mind.

[Moon]

I am one who thinks the Freemasons are directly descended from a branch of the Knights Templar. They did good deeds and helped many common people out back then. That scared a lot of nobility and royalty who viewed that treatment as a threat to their power.

The same is true of Freemasons, as they have always been charitable. Back when they first started out, this was also feared by the powers in charge so they demonized the group.

I am a Pagan and understand what you mean by most taking things out of context and referring us to as Satan worshipers.

I look forward to reading more on what you have to say on this fascinating subject.

[Tombstone]

I am a:

Master Mason
32 Degree of The Scottish Rite
Knight Templar of The York Rite
Noble of the Mystic Shrine

And all that Illuminati stuff is crap! They "tried" to infiltrate the Freemasons around the time of the American Revolution but were discovered and banned. They were just another group of Masons that wanted to start their own group, but got in trouble because of their being double agents so to speak. They only were in existence for a short period of time and then fell by the wayside.

It does make for great fiction though!

I too believe the Freemasons are direct descendants from the Knight Templars. I have been to Roslyn Chapel in Scotland and it (the building itself) is a direct link between the two Fraternal Orders, although there were many years before October 13th, 1307 "Friday The Thirteenth" and the:

"The Oldest Masonic Lodge in the World Was Opened in 1599"

"The oldest Masonic Lodge in the world is the Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1, Edinburgh, Scotland...sometimes known as Mary's Chapel. In July, 1949, it observed its 350th anniversary of its establishment. In 2008, (at the time of this writing), Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1 is 409 years old."

Both in Scotland! What a coincidence!

Actually, they are only 6.51 miles apart.

http://manetta.us/RoslynChapel.jpg

http://www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/

Oh, BTW, Don't even go to the 33 Degree Mason. That is even more garbage.

combined posts, did not edit or change any content

I did not mean to offend anyone and I am more than willing to discuss any of this with all of you. I am not the complete know-it-all about the groups, but I did spend the last 30+ years researching all of this stuff.

I became a Mason because I wanted to wear my dead father's Masonic ring. It seems silly, but I won't even wear a ball cap to something that I did not earn or belong to. At the same time I was deeply investigating secret societies and thought this would be a way to really find out what was going on and what the truth was. The secret is, there is no secret.

A long time ago, there was. Lives depended on being secret. This was after the Templars were betrayed and labeled as heretics and burned at the stake by The Catholic Church and France, Spain and a few other countries. This all was at the beginning of the Inquisition!

France and his “Puppet Pope” were heavily in debt to everyone and they saw all this huge amount of wealth in the coffers of the Knight Templars, so they created these lies and tried to grab the loot.

The Templars were very rich because by Papal Decree, they got to keep all of the spoils of their Crusades and they were also allowed to collect interest on loans, something no one else could do then in the Roman Catholic World. When you add up the huge amount of land and properties and figure in that the Templars had taken an oath of chastity and poverty, they never spent their money and it just piled up.

Not to mention that they were one of the first banking institutions and made interest on loans they made to people traveling to the Holy Land. If you traveled from Europe to Jerusalem with a chest of gold, you probably would not survive the journey. You would be robbed and killed, so they created a secret cipher, and took whatever money you needed over there and gave you an encrypted letter of credit. When you got to Jerusalem or wherever you were going, you just went to the “Temple” of the Templars and exchanged the note for the gold.

When they were betrayed by the Church, they had to run for their lives. Their secret signs and handshakes made it possible for these homeless Templars to get food and “Lodging” from their brothers and sympathizers. This is why the building that Freemasons meet in is called a “Lodge” There are thousands of things that you would never consider that come out of these times. Their “Horrible and Sadistic “sounding secret oaths that they took were no meant as a threat from one Mason to another, but these are the kind of terrible things that would happen to them (from the Church and Crowns) to them and their brothers if they were ever discovered. In those torture chambers of the Inquisition, there were some really horrible and sadistic things that were inflicted on you before they eventually killed you.

In the mid 1700s, the ancestors of these Knight Templars and the knower’s of the secrets just started to meet in public. This is when Freemasonry, The Illuminati and a dozen other fraternal orders started popping up everywhere. This was the Renaissance and the times of Enlightenment, when an average man could actually read the Bible himself and draw their own conclusions on what the different religions meant.

There is much, much more, but I don’t want to go on forever. I will tell you what I discovered and what I think, but I will not betray my oaths and it is not really necessary anymore. You guys can find the oaths on the Internet. I can always give you my interpretation of what I think it meant and why it was said.

Respectfully,

[Moon]

I have seen many books that claim Satanism and other demonic relationships between secret societies in general. The idea is for them to sell books and not really do the research into the groups. Most of them are pure speculation, but do not mention it in the book itself as such.

[Tombstone]

I have seen many books that claim Satanism and other demonic relationships between secret societies in general. The idea is for them to sell books and not really do the research into the groups. Most of them are pure speculation, but do not mention it in the book itself as such.

Very Intelligent! Well Done!

(I see you got me again with combining my messages!)

I will assume that you would prefer that I do this myself when I have a second thought ore something to add? When I combine my messages like that, does anyone subscribed to this thread get an email that there was a post? Regardless, I will edit my messages in the future instead of creating another post unless I respond to a reply. Sorry again...

[upperworld]

(I see you got me again with combining my messages!)

I will assume that you would prefer that I do this myself when I have a second thought ore something to add? When I combine my messages like that, does anyone subscribed to this thread get an email that there was a post? Regardless, I will edit my messages in the future instead of creating another post unless I respond to a reply. Sorry again...

No worries Tombstone it is appreciated by all on the forum to avoid "double posting". It is in the rules page here:

http://www.legendarytimes.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=33

Now a quick masons question for you. If the modern day masons do not really hold any secrets, what is really the point? I don't mean to sound condescending, but i'm just curious why does a society of secrets continue to meet in private if it is not preserving any secrets? How then does it differ from an Elks club or VFW?

[Tombstone]

I guess it is just tradition at this point. I have never seen any kind of secret to speak of. In the past, it was a way for men of different faiths to be able to sit down at the same table and not get caught up in religious debates or arguments. (It is not allowed except for extreme cases like The American Revolution) I am talking about the times when you had a King, Queen or Pope to answer to and it would be possibly fatal. This practice is still done where intermingling might be discouraged, like in the Middle East or Communist Nations.

There really is no point other than the brotherhood and today, even that is questionable. There are extreme politics happening inside many Lodges in order to sit at the head of the table and most Masons don't even know the real history like me and might even take objection to what I am saying, but I have been on the receiving end of this strife.

I love the Philosophy of Masonry and not the actual Lodges. I have not been into a Lodge for over 10 years because it is very boring watching people go through the same rituals all the time.

The Philosophy of Masonry is very simple:

Love your brother man, no matter what religion or politics he happens to believe in.
(Except in the case of Devil Worshiping or anything harmful to others.)
Protect your brother man when he needs protection.
Shelter your brother man when he needs shelter.
Do not cheat or steal from your brother man.

Basically follow”The Golden Rule” and pay particular attention to your Brother Mason since we have taken oaths to protect them. (Within reason!) You don’t need to sacrifice your life or anything like that to protect them or do anything immoral.

Since I know the real history of the craft, it is that much more important to me personally. (And this brotherhood goes back to the dawn of time and doesn’t just start with the Templars.) It goes back to the “Ancient Astronaut” times when we once possessed knowledge that we have since lost, just like how your average Mason doesn’t even know Masonic history today.

To me, there is no point. That is why I no longer attend, but I am still a dues paying, card carrying member.

Trust me, if you say you worship the Devil or had evil intentions you would not be allowed to join!

[Serene]

Why is it a men only society?

[Tombstone]

First of all, it is a very old fraternity. (Society, whatever...)

Throughout the eons of human history, it has been "A Man's World". This is mostly because of the obvious, strength. "Might Makes Right" ect...

Only since the Suffragist Movement have women gotten any kind of equality and even today this Man's World mentality is mostly still true.

The Freemasons do have a "Sister" Organization called the “Eastern Star” and it is made up of all women. (Although it is true that Masons can attend an Eastern Star meeting and not visa versa)

I think your question goes much further than just to the Freemasons. Look at any major religion, (and I am not saying Masonry is a religion, because it most definitely is not) how many women are Catholic Priests, Jewish Rabbis, or Muslim Mullahs?

Freemasonry is only a reflection of society when it was first founded. Maybe someday they will allow women, but I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime.

[Moon]

Tombstone, I know you are busy and get into writing these posts. If you want people to get the emails (some subscribe to getting emails on each post they like), then I will do the combining for you. It is no big deal, but we mainly do it for smaller posts.

I can give a suggestion to the other moderators that we leave huge posts untouched.

(Many people just add a sentence or two, and those should be joined.)

[upperworld]

Thank you for your response Tombstone. I appreciate your insight and candidness. This is not a slight towards Masonry, but i question the usefulness of such organizations in modern society. In an age where we are trying to get as much disclosure out of our governments and aristocratic elitists as we can it seems counterproductive to maintain societies of secrets. Again, even if the organization is composed of men of high moral standard. Could not those same values be practiced by man outside of the constrains of freemasonry, of course they can...as you are proving to us now since you have not been in a lodge in years.

[Tombstone]

Thank you for your response Tombstone. I appreciate your insight and candidness. This is not a slight towards Masonry, but i question the usefulness of such organizations in modern society. In an age where we are trying to get as much disclosure out of our governments and aristocratic elitists as we can it seems counterproductive to maintain societies of secrets. Again, even if the organization is composed of men of high moral standard. Could not those same values be practiced by man outside of the constrains of freemasonry, of course they can...as you are proving to us now since you have not been in a lodge in years.

Yes they could, but where is the brotherhood? Some men don’t have brothers and this is one way to gain a lot of them, plus you might really enjoy the craft?

There will never be places without secrets. Corporations have them, the Military has them and so do many, many other organizations because of not keeping these secrets could ruin your business, your professional football team, etc..

If you are a man, all you have to do is ask to join a Lodge and you can find out what is really going on? It isn’t a big deal.

[upperworld]

Yes they could, but where is the brotherhood? Some men don’t have brothers and this is one way to gain a lot of them, plus you might really enjoy the craft?

There will never be places without secrets. Corporations have them, the Military has them and so do many, many other organizations because of not keeping these secrets could ruin your business, your professional football team, etc..

If you are a man, all you have to do is ask to join a Lodge and you can find out what is really going on? It isn’t a big deal.

I can respect that. One of the greatest experiences of organized sports is the camraderie. As an adult we probably do lose a lot of that if we don't have a close knit family or work environment. If joining a masonic lodge is a way to rekindle that emotion, who am i to judge?

[Moon]

Here is my take on secret societies:

One of the foundations of the USA is to have groups like this meet in secret without reprisal. I know many conspiracy theorists don't like this, but many of these groups were illegal and could be prosecuted if someone was found to be a member of.

The ability to join and be a member of a private group should be one thing we all allow if we want to remain a fully free society.