Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

...let the debates begin!

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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby greekben » Tue May 03, 2011 9:26 am

A Muslim killing another Muslim just seems odd to me?
greekben
 

Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Tue May 03, 2011 9:33 am

Wow, thanks for the list ilacewords. I can add my wife to your list as she also (strongly) believes OBL has been dead for a long time.

The only item that can be excluded (in part) is this one:

    - In 2003, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told Fox News Channel analyst Morton Kondracke she suspected Bush knew the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and was waiting for the most politically expedient moment to announce his capture.

as the "most politically expedient moment" would have been his 2004 election or his 2008 legacy; certainly at a minimum, sometime during his term -- which negates Ms. Albright's theory (although it is still possible he knew the location).

In any event, I completely agree with you; given all this commentary, it can be hard to figure out how one feels about this. It has gone from a matter of fact to a matter of faith -- especially now that the body has been dumped at sea. Faith in the government and faith in our President is (rightfully) in short supply at the moment.

For me, I trust the Teams -- these guys live and breathe honor (they have demonstrably faced court martial rather than lie) and I cannot fathom that they would lie to a nation they swore to defend (to date no Navy SEAL has ever betrayed the nation, and, IMO, it is doubtful that any operator would want to be the first). Of course that is just my belief, my faith if you will, and many (perhaps most) will find it misplaced, but I do not think so. No individual SEAL would disgrace the Teams -- even if his life was at stake, my money is on them.

Might be interesting to hear what Jesse Ventura has to say about this ;-)
Pons Asinorum
 

Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Tue May 03, 2011 9:55 am

I have a question about the dna testing. For them to identify him by dna wouldn't they need another sample to compare it to? If so where did they get this other sample?
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Foxlike Mulder » Tue May 03, 2011 10:05 am

I agree with the consensus that something smells fishy (and it's not OBL's body in the ocean). As for whether he died earlier or not, what about the fact that when he was actively "on the lam" in the mountains of Afghanistan/Pakistan he carting around a dialysis machine? That was at least 7-8 years ago. How long can one survive on dialysis, especially under the types of conditions he was under? Of course, someone could have given him a transplant, but that would have signaled a bunch of alarms (I would imagine). How much satisfaction would the American public have if we discovered he died of kidney failure 4 years ago?

On another note, as they say, timing is everything. This is what I see: Pakistan tells Afghanistan last week, in a very public statement, ditch the US as an ally and start working with us and China. There were other not so nice words, but that was the gist of it all. Relations with Pakistan are critically low. So, 4 days later, we kill OBL 30 miles outside of Islamabad, in the heart of Pakistan. Tell em this isn't a message. Whether he was already dead or alive, the news of this incident was timed, no question about it.

As for how this country should end the matter of Osama's death, I don't think a public spectacle would help our reputation around the world. How would parading OBL's body be any different than the pictures of Jihad militants hoisting a downed fighter pilot around the local mountain town? Revenge is certainly satisfying, especially in the heat of the moment, but revenge begets revenge, and so on...The Hatfield and McCoys are still at it in KY. If what they say truly happened, then what they did to complete the mission was the right thing to do (IMO).
Foxlike Mulder
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby ilacewords » Tue May 03, 2011 10:50 am

Theory wrote:I have a question about the dna testing. For them to identify him by dna wouldn't they need another sample to compare it to? If so where did they get this other sample?


I had heard a blip that they had a sample of his sister's brain from a surgery she underwent previously that they had been saving for this day to come. When you asked this question I thought I would go searching for it and while I found several articles mentioning it, they all reference back to the same one source, The Telegraph in the UK. It's a major paper so I suppose it would be like getting from MSNBC or something but take that for what you will as well. Suppose we don't have much to really go on even a few days later.
I did hear the US is considering releasing some photos of the body or perhaps the at sea burial soon. It will be interesting to see how those appear.
Here's the Telegraph story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8488004/Osama-Bin-Ladens-body-identified-by-sisters-brain.html
ilacewords
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Tue May 03, 2011 1:44 pm

He doesn't have any full blooded sibilings, but he does have a crap load of half sibilings. From what I read in the artical below, they do not know for a fact that this was osama, it very well could've been a relative of his. Until, they can get his mother to do a dna test, there will be that chance of it not being him...that is if there was even a body to begin with, so if they couldn't identify him just by looking at him then theres also a good chance that the guys who dumped the body had no clue at all who they were dumping, technically they're not lying they are just going by what they were told.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/did-dna-finger-bin-laden--20110502?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dbf6aed691b59ff,0
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Tue May 03, 2011 2:41 pm

Theory wrote:He doesn't have any full blooded sibilings, but he does have a crap load of half sibilings. From what I read in the artical below, they do not know for a fact that this was osama, it very well could've been a relative of his. Until, they can get his mother to do a dna test, there will be that chance of it not being him...that is if there was even a body to begin with, so if they couldn't identify him just by looking at him then theres also a good chance that the guys who dumped the body had no clue at all who they were dumping, technically they're not lying they are just going by what they were told.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/did-dna-finger-bin-laden--20110502?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dbf6aed691b59ff,0


Still would put my money on an operator being able to visually identify the target properly (happens all the time and Team Six is, well... this is what they do, exclusively).

Nevertheless, the DNA question is a good one. If they have a sample from only one half-sibling, then statistically, they could only be certain to a 90% probability -- no more. However, if they have samples from two or more half-siblings, then that certainty can be increased (to get to 99.9% or greater, I think they need more than two -- will research that).

The New York Times states that (unnamed) government officials claim a 99.9% DNA match confirming OBL's identity.

So, yeah, great question -- who's DNA did they use (and if it is not one of the parents, then they better have more than two half-siblings as an answer).

--
Foxlike Mulder wrote:As for how this country should end the matter of Osama's death, I don't think a public spectacle would help our reputation around the world. How would parading OBL's body be any different than the pictures of Jihad militants hoisting a downed fighter pilot around the local mountain town?


Your first point is an excellent one and our leaders probably came to the same conclusion. I still disagree because (a) I'm that kind of guy (call it a character flaw) and (b) the language of the blood feud is the language of our enemy -- it is the only viable means of communication we will ever have with them IMHO.

To your question (and IMHO a fair question), there is not parity between an officer in the uniform of his country carrying out lawful orders in an effort to kill only military targets as a matter of law and policy, versus a terrorist who murders for ideology and is deliberately trying to unlawfully kill unarmed men, women and children -- and who disavow any and all conventions of warfare.

In short, one is a human being -- worthy of dignity and respect -- and the other is not. At least, that is how I see it.
Pons Asinorum
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby tizme4158 » Tue May 03, 2011 4:31 pm

Pons Asinorum wrote:He murdered thousands upon thousands of people. He caused wars, perverted a religion, and justified evil. He was human, but not a human being by any definition that matters.


To the rainmakers, shooters, and finders -- Thank You for taking the trash out.


Spot on Pons. I think you summed it up best.
tizme4158
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Tue May 03, 2011 6:22 pm

Thank you tizme4158! :D

--

Okay, here is another article re the DNA:

New Scientist, 05/03/11, by Ferris Jabr who wrote:
[OBL]... was identified by comparison to photographs, confirmation from one of his wives at the compound, facial-recognition software...DNA...

...

John Brennan, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, said the DNA evidence provided a match with "99.9 per cent confidence". That would require the comparison of DNA from the body with that of people known to be related to bin Laden. Bin Laden had no full siblings, but more than 50 half-siblings and up to 24 children.

...

Using DNA from many half-siblings could produce a DNA match of greater than 90 per cent confidence, but it would be difficult to get as high as 99.9 per cent without a closer relative says Rhonda Roby, a forensic geneticist at the University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth.


It seems that with just half-siblings, many samples are required to get to 99.9% and it is a process of reconstructing the genes of the common parent for comparison -- so the way I see it, at least four half-siblings would be requried and a great deal of luck with their genes, or a larger number of half-siblings and less luck, but four as a base minimum.

More likely, our intelligence services got DNA from a child of OBL (somehow) and however many half-siblings as it could.

This is not a trivial problem, the administration needs to answer this ASAP.
Pons Asinorum
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Moon » Tue May 03, 2011 7:14 pm

Randyrrr wrote:I wouldn't believe it.
I am from the show me group.
Why dump the body?
All of those ships have freezers on them.
Something smells fishy to me....

Why not display this body to the press.
Remember some of the so called hijackers have been found still alive and hiding from the CIA.


It is called respect what we did. A civilized nation does not parade the bodies of those it takes out no matter how evil they are. The Muslim tradition is to bury the body within 24 hours and we did so. There were cameras on the attack force who took him out and they recorded the entire thing as it happened. They also have pictures of the body and other evidence proving it was him.

Also, they found many computer discs and other items that will be very helpful in capturing other terrorists and stopping plots.

This is how it should of been done from the beginning: Use special forces to take out the bad guys and not start two wars that eventually will cost trillions of dollars.

I also think our Special Ops troops did an outstanding job, and President Obama gave the OK to a very tricky assignment. Had this gone wrong, it would of played out very differently.
Moon
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Tue May 03, 2011 7:23 pm

No offence Max, but since when do we show respect to mass murderers? and when did mass murderers deserve any kind of respect? If we found Hitlers body what do you suppose would be done with it? Would they be respectful?
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Moon » Tue May 03, 2011 8:14 pm

Theory wrote:No offence Max, but since when do we show respect to mass murderers? and when did mass murderers deserve any kind of respect? If we found Hitlers body what do you suppose would be done with it? Would they be respectful?


I think they would parade around with the body. I do think it is natural for most people to want us to do such a thing, but we must remember they do not want the Muslim world to think it is a war against them. The treatment of his body goes a long way to show them we respect their views.

It is true they had no respect for our soldiers they have killed and paraded around, but we are supposed to be above it.
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Tue May 03, 2011 8:31 pm

That is true, but the thing is by showing the Muslims respect on how we dealt with his body we also showed him respect. Plus, why can't the Muslims be understanding that after what this man did to us, to them, to everyone else, that we would feel the need to do things a bit differently? Do people remember that video osama's men made years ago of them sawing a guys a head off???? I myself refused to watch it, but one night as I was watching the news they played an audio only version, I heard that man scream! I heard the blood pouring into his throat as they sawed his head off with a blunt blade! And people want me to believe it was the right thing to do to respect this man!!!?? I just can't imagine myself giving respect to someone so filled with hatred and bloodlust, and it should never matter what a pathetic piece of human flesh like osama beliefs are or what he claimed his beliefs were. I'm talking about just burying the nimwit without the rituals and respect, I'm not talking about parading his body around, just burying him without all the good stuff if that puts me down at their level then I'm missing something. What the kicker is, is the Muslims are pissed at us anyways and now the Pakistanians(did I say that right?) are pissed at us too. So, in the end it wouldn't have mattered what they did, everyone is going to hate us for one reason or another. Isn't this whole thing going to say to all the other crazy nuteroos that its okay, kill as many people as you want we will still respect you?
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby mahalla2 » Tue May 03, 2011 9:20 pm

Well, I really think this has all been a dog and pony show anyway - Remember the movie "Wag the Dog"? Now has just been a convenient time to announce the death of OBL but he has actually been DAB (dead and buried) for who knows how long - :roll:
mahalla2
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Tue May 03, 2011 11:18 pm

maxmercury wrote:
It is called respect what we did. A civilized nation does not parade the bodies of those it takes out no matter how evil they are. The Muslim tradition is to bury the body within 24 hours and we did so. There were cameras on the attack force who took him out and they recorded the entire thing as it happened. They also have pictures of the body and other evidence proving it was him.

Also, they found many computer discs and other items that will be very helpful in capturing other terrorists and stopping plots.

This is how it should of been done from the beginning: Use special forces to take out the bad guys and not start two wars that eventually will cost trillions of dollars.

I also think our Special Ops troops did an outstanding job, and President Obama gave the OK to a very tricky assignment. Had this gone wrong, it would of played out very differently.


Not entirely sure about that Max. IMO, we showed weakness -- at least that is how it will be viewed by our enemies. We are not fighting a nation, or a religion, or even a professional organization of warriors; but a bloodthirsty and barbaric ideology, which justifies murder and mass murder by perverting a religion. When we bathed their leader, we participated in that perversion -- worse, we humbled ourselves and showed weakness in their language.

Agree with you, that in all THREE wars (we have since added another one) special forces was the way to address them -- especially given the tribal and fractious nature of all three regions. Too bad nobody checked with us (also think that is true with the upcoming war in Iran, but my phone is not ringing and bet yours is not either ;-)).

Also agree with you, that the President made a tough and courageous decision and that Team Six's effort was outstanding in every respect.

Disagree that it has not gone wrong -- that has yet to be determined (not tactically, but strategically). The President's real work -- the fruits of his prior planning -- will now be tested.
Pons Asinorum
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Wed May 04, 2011 5:18 am

Has anyone else noticed that this whole thing is already starting to fade a bit into the background? It's not even the top story anymore in my area. I don't know if thats a good thing or a bad thing :?
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby ilacewords » Wed May 04, 2011 5:26 am

Another thing I keep thinking on the proper burial thing is - didn't most Muslims disavow OBL due to his practices not being in line with Muslim law? They aren't exactly the 'gun-toting, destroying WTC people' that a lot of people think they can be. Muslims are a peaceful group and do not condone terrorism of any form as most sane people don't. Most Muslims religious leaders do not condone his actions at all under Muslim law. Seems like an excuse that's convenient for me for the US government to bury him quickly.

Minor detail, but speaking of details...(hold onto your hats!) they are changing....
Four bin Laden details the administration got wrong
http://theweek.com/article/index/214892/4-bin-laden-details-the-obama-administration-got-wrong
ilacewords
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Shaun_Omega » Wed May 04, 2011 5:38 am

Wow, seems like the videos I posted were completely ignored, oh well.

Shaun_Omega wrote:I recommend people give this a watch before submitting to the BS the US government feeds you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpBPVkpmoeg

and if that isn't enough for you then watch this multipart feature on the subject.

Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49vg7P48Lw
Shaun_Omega
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby ilacewords » Wed May 04, 2011 6:16 am

Shaun_Omega wrote:Wow, seems like the videos I posted were completely ignored, oh well.

Shaun_Omega wrote:I recommend people give this a watch before submitting to the BS the US government feeds you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpBPVkpmoeg

and if that isn't enough for you then watch this multipart feature on the subject.

Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49vg7P48Lw


I don't think they were 'ignored' but the first video is really just a rehash of the story that I linked by Alex Jones a couple of posts prior to yours. It's talking largely of the people that have spoken on bin Laden's prior 'death(s)' and what several people in places of power have commmented about in the past ten years. I think most people here already have questions about our goverment, scientific institutions and/or the 'powers that be' or we wouldn't be on this board really imo.
Some people also do have a hard time accessing youtube such as myself but I can forward most youtubes to my cell and watch from there. Even then though some of those videos won't play on mobiles. But I mainly access this on my down time at work and youtube is blocked completely on my pc there. Course I can only speak for myself.
ilacewords
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Foxlike Mulder » Wed May 04, 2011 6:51 am

Pons Asinorum wrote:
Theory wrote:He doesn't have any full blooded sibilings, but he does have a crap load of half sibilings. From what I read in the artical below, they do not know for a fact that this was osama, it very well could've been a relative of his. Until, they can get his mother to do a dna test, there will be that chance of it not being him...that is if there was even a body to begin with, so if they couldn't identify him just by looking at him then theres also a good chance that the guys who dumped the body had no clue at all who they were dumping, technically they're not lying they are just going by what they were told.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/did-dna-finger-bin-laden--20110502?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dbf6aed691b59ff,0


Still would put my money on an operator being able to visually identify the target properly (happens all the time and Team Six is, well... this is what they do, exclusively).

Nevertheless, the DNA question is a good one. If they have a sample from only one half-sibling, then statistically, they could only be certain to a 90% probability -- no more. However, if they have samples from two or more half-siblings, then that certainty can be increased (to get to 99.9% or greater, I think they need more than two -- will research that).

The New York Times states that (unnamed) government officials claim a 99.9% DNA match confirming OBL's identity.

So, yeah, great question -- who's DNA did they use (and if it is not one of the parents, then they better have more than two half-siblings as an answer).

--
Foxlike Mulder wrote:As for how this country should end the matter of Osama's death, I don't think a public spectacle would help our reputation around the world. How would parading OBL's body be any different than the pictures of Jihad militants hoisting a downed fighter pilot around the local mountain town?


Your first point is an excellent one and our leaders probably came to the same conclusion. I still disagree because (a) I'm that kind of guy (call it a character flaw) and (b) the language of the blood feud is the language of our enemy -- it is the only viable means of communication we will ever have with them IMHO.

To your question (and IMHO a fair question), there is not parity between an officer in the uniform of his country carrying out lawful orders in an effort to kill only military targets as a matter of law and policy, versus a terrorist who murders for ideology and is deliberately trying to unlawfully kill unarmed men, women and children -- and who disavow any and all conventions of warfare.

In short, one is a human being -- worthy of dignity and respect -- and the other is not. At least, that is how I see it.



Very good points and ones I can agree to; I also think there is no clear right or wrong here. However, we both have a different perspective than that of our enemies. The man in our military uniform is no different in their eyes than that of the suicide bombers and those who plot the attacks. And for that reason, we need to understand the motivations which lead to watershed events like 9/11. The enemies in the Middle East have dedicated themselves to advance their cause no matter how profane the action. There is no end in sight, yet we could easily make it worse with certain actions. Personally, I would prefer to avoid future violence by "standing down" in certain situations...yet, what that stance gets for us is truly anyone's guess.

On a different note, I'd like to know how the Middle East got so far "out of whack" with their religious ideology. This area of the world is the cradle of civilization. Is there something we're missing/they're missing? If AAT is true, then this is where it all started and we should look harder at this. So how did these people get to this level of fervor? Again, depending on how much you believe AAT, is there a connection with how the population (and languages) were separated after the floods? I don't think it's a coincidence that we have four distinct racial populations "popping up" in the four corners of the world after the floods. Sorry to deviate from the topic, but it's still related if we're looking for answers/solutions to today's mess.
Foxlike Mulder
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby mahalla2 » Wed May 04, 2011 8:15 am

ilacewords wrote: Minor detail, but speaking of details...(hold onto your hats!) they are changing....
Four bin Laden details the administration got wrong
http://theweek.com/article/index/214892/4-bin-laden-details-the-obama-administration-got-wrong


hmmm, maybe not so minor -

okay, so it seems we have 1) still no body, 2) ambiguous photos of where this happened, 3) changes in the story of what happened, and 4) as far as I can tell, still no credible witness of anyone who was actually there when it happened - So would a real police department anywhere consider any of this as evidence? Yet, we are all suppose to soak it up like petunia's in the sun -
mahalla2
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby ilacewords » Wed May 04, 2011 8:39 am

mahalla2 wrote:
ilacewords wrote: Minor detail, but speaking of details...(hold onto your hats!) they are changing....
Four bin Laden details the administration got wrong
http://theweek.com/article/index/214892/4-bin-laden-details-the-obama-administration-got-wrong


hmmm, maybe not so minor -

okay, so it seems we have 1) still no body, 2) ambiguous photos of where this happened, 3) changes in the story of what happened, and 4) as far as I can tell, still no credible witness of anyone who was actually there when it happened - So would a real police department anywhere consider any of this as evidence? Yet, we are all suppose to soak it up like petunia's in the sun -


Nice analogy. If we called this into a 911 operator, we'd be crazy I'm thinking when you put it that way. :wink:
ilacewords
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby truthseeker » Thu May 05, 2011 2:54 am

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if i am a tad late...


OBL died in December 01 from Morfan/s syndrome. he also suffered with renal/kidney problems, which is why his 2nd IC was a doctor.
truthseeker
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby ilacewords » Thu May 05, 2011 6:47 am

Obama now confirms "President Obama WILL NOT Release Death Photo"

"President Barack Obama has now decided he will NOT release the ultra-gory photos of Osama bin Laden's bloody, bullet-ridden face to the public.
The news comes in the wake of reports that Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Hillary Clinton had advised Obama about concerns that releasing a photograph could prompt a backlash against the U.S.

Obama told "60 Minutes" ... "The risks of release outweigh the benefits" ... adding, "Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."

Obama continued, "Imagine how the American people would react if al-Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet."

"Osama bin Laden is not a trophy -- he is dead and let's now focus on continuing the fight until al-Qaida has been eliminated." "

[Actually saw this on TMZ (lol, I know....) referencing 60 minutes.]

My thoughts...why would he assume people would think the photos are shopped? There's a way to prove or not prove that assumption...BUT! I do get what he says about reprecussions. Yes, we would be pissed about them posting pictures of our dead soldiers. Wait a minute, they have posted pics of our dead soldiers & hostages as they chopped their heads off...
oh well.. /sigh

Edit for wave to truthseeker, I am of the opinion he's been dead for a while as well & welcome to the thread!
ilacewords
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Thu May 05, 2011 7:10 am

I agree with you ilacewords, and I'm leaning pretty far on the fence towards he's been dead for who knows how long.
Theory
 
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Bin Laden Died In 2001, 9/11 A False Flag

Postby Jir1984 » Thu May 05, 2011 7:47 am

Check this article out... Ex- Deputy Assistant Secretary of State claiming Bin Laden died in 01..before any of the attacks

http://www.disclose.tv/frameset.php?url ... e-says.htm


Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under three different Presidents and still works with the Defense Department, shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.

Pieczenik cannot be dismissed as a “conspiracy theorist”. He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT.

Recruited by Lawrence Eagleburger as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Management, Pieczenik went on to develop, “the basic tenets for psychological warfare, counter terrorism, strategy and tactics for transcultural negotiations for the US State Department, military and intelligence communities and other agencies of the US Government,” while also developing foundational strategies for hostage rescue that were later employed around the world.

Pieczenik also served as a senior policy planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker and worked on George W. Bush’s election campaign against Al Gore. His record underscores the fact that he is one of the most deeply connected men in intelligence circles over the past three decades plus.

The character of Jack Ryan, who appears in many Tom Clancy novels and was also played by Harrison Ford in the popular 1992 movie Patriot Games, is also based on Steve Pieczenik.

Back in April 2002, over nine years ago, Pieczenik told the Alex Jones Show that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80′s.

Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.

Marfan syndrome is a degenerative genetic disease for which there is no permanent cure. The illness severely shortens the life span of the sufferer.

“He died of marfan syndrome, Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai.

“He was already very sick from marfan syndrome and he was already dying, so nobody had to kill him,” added Pieczenik, stating that Bin Laden died shortly after 9/11 in his Tora Bora cave complex.

“Did the intelligence community or the CIA doctor up this situation, the answer is yes, categorically yes,” said Pieczenik, referring to Sunday’s claim that Bin Laden was killed at his compound in Pakistan, adding, “This whole scenario where you see a bunch of people sitting there looking at a screen and they look as if they’re intense, that’s nonsense,” referring to the images released by the White House which claim to show Biden, Obama and Hillary Clinton watching the operation to kill Bin Laden live on a television screen.

“It’s a total make-up, make believe, we’re in an American theater of the absurd….why are we doing this again….nine years ago this man was already dead….why does the government repeatedly have to lie to the American people,” asked Pieczenik.

“Osama Bin Laden was totally dead, so there’s no way they could have attacked or confronted or killed Osama Bin laden,” said Pieczenik, joking that the only way it could have happened was if special forces had attacked a mortuary.

Pieczenik said that the decision to launch the hoax now was made because Obama had reached a low with plummeting approval ratings and the fact that the birther issue was blowing up in his face.

“He had to prove that he was more than American….he had to be aggressive,” said Pieczenik, adding that the farce was also a way of isolating Pakistan as a retaliation for intense opposition to the Predator drone program, which has killed hundreds of Pakistanis.

“This is orchestrated, I mean when you have people sitting around and watching a sitcom, basically the operations center of the White House, and you have a president coming out almost zombie-like telling you they just killed Osama Bin Laden who was already dead nine years ago,” said Pieczenik, calling the episode, “the greatest falsehood I’ve ever heard, I mean it was absurd.”

Dismissing the government’s account of the assassination of Bin Laden as a “sick joke” on the American people, Pieczenik said, “They are so desperate to make Obama viable, to negate the fact that he may not have been born here, any questions about his background, any irregularities about his background, to make him look assertive….to re-elect this president so the American public can be duped once again.”

Pieczenik’s assertion that Bin Laden died almost ten years ago is echoed by numerous intelligence professionals as well as heads of state across the world.

Bin Laden, “Was used in the same way that 9/11 was used to mobilize the emotions and feelings of the American people in order to go to a war that had to be justified through a narrative that Bush junior created and Cheney created about the world of terrorism,” stated Pieczenik.

During his interview with the Alex Jones Show yesterday, Pieczenik also asserted he was directly told by a prominent general that 9/11 was a stand down and a false flag operation, and that he is prepared to go to a grand jury to reveal the general’s name.

“They ran the attacks,” said Pieczenik, naming Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Stephen Hadley, Elliott Abrams, and Condoleezza Rice amongst others as having been directly involved.

“It was called a stand down, a false flag operation in order to mobilize the American public under false pretenses….it was told to me even by the general on the staff of Wolfowitz – I will go in front of a federal committee and swear on perjury who the name was of the individual so that we can break it open,” said Pieczenik, adding that he was “furious” and “knew it had happened”.

“I taught stand down and false flag operations at the national war college, I’ve taught it with all my operatives so I knew exactly what was done to the American public,” he added.

Pieczenik re-iterated that he was perfectly willing to reveal the name of the general who told him 9/11 was an inside job in a federal court, “so that we can unravel this thing legally, not with the stupid 9/11 Commission that was absurd.”

Pieczenik explained that he was not a liberal, a conservative or a tea party member, merely an American who is deeply concerned about the direction in which his country is heading.

Paul Joseph Watson is the editor and writer for Prison Planet.com. He is the author of Order Out Of Chaos. Watson is also a regular fill-in host for The Alex Jones Show.
Jir1984
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Thu May 05, 2011 10:05 am

Truthseeker! (wave)

--

ilacewords wrote:Obama continued, "Imagine how the American people would react if al-Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet."

"Osama bin Laden is not a trophy -- he is dead and let's now focus on continuing the fight until al-Qaida has been eliminated." "

[Actually saw this on TMZ (lol, I know....) referencing 60 minutes.]

My thoughts...why would he assume people would think the photos are shopped? There's a way to prove or not prove that assumption...BUT! I do get what he says about reprecussions. Yes, we would be pissed about them posting pictures of our dead soldiers. Wait a minute, they have posted pics of our dead soldiers & hostages as they chopped their heads off...
oh well.. /sigh


Sad but true ilace.

--

The President's reasoning is certainly understandable (and indeed has been echoed by many). But it fails to reflect reality.

It is not supposed to be about displaying a "trophy" anymore than his appearance at Ground Zero is supposed to be about gloating or taking credit (the fact that he does not understand this is not good).

OBL's body would have been definitive proof (nobody believes Saddam Hussein or his sons are alive, at least not to any significance. When they died, it was a major step in achieving victory).

Appeasement does not work (as already noted, they have shown their acts of murder and barbarity on the internet -- even live executions on the internet where the victims' screams can be heard. If our President thinks this will appease them, he is sadly mistaken).

To the barbaric code of the blood feud, the killing of a major leader is a statement of strength (long term, it may have acted as a mitigating factor in terms of enemy moral, recruitment, and energy). Instead, we have shown weakness and even gave a degree of legitimacy to the enemy, and these actions will likely have the opposite effect.

Inflaming Islamic Terrorists is irrelevant because such are already determined to commit acts of mass murder and atrocities. We are not at war with Islam, but with Islamic Terrorists (sometimes, the President appears to not understand this or what that means -- OBL is not supposed to be a Holy Man in Islam and therefore worthy of veneration and respect any more than an infidel -- treatment of OBL's body would be irrelevant if Islam is a legitimate religion, which is the presumption. If not, let the chips fall where they may). Indeed, a smart leader would have used this as a lighting rod and changed the terms of the battlefield. This is right out of Sun-tzu's Art of War: "Now if someone is victorious in battle and succeeds in attack but does not exploit the achievement, it is disastrous, and his fate should be termed 'wasteful and tarrying.' Thus it is said the wise general ponders it, the good general cultivates it." (That said, given the President's knowledge and experience, one cannot expect the him to know or understand such things -- not his fault, but ours).

In the face of such an enemy, conventional victory is not possible; conventional tactics are only defensive measures. There is no city we can take, or territory we can control that will stop our enemy. But its most respected leader who gave such a victory to them, which inspired Islamic Terrorism to unprecedented levels (again, evidence of the language of the blood feud)...kill him, and you have a potential offensive measure.

We did not follow through (so far). In short, from our enemy's perspective, our President showed fear and acknowledged that fear.

In my view, the President does not understand how to win (perhaps he does not think it is possible, as is the case with him in Afghanistan). In any event, he has showed weakness and it will only inspire (increase) the violence against us.

I think this best sums it up:

Daily Caller, 05/04/11, by Jim Treacher who wrote:
It’s been less than 72 hours since President Barack Obama announced that U.S. Special Forces had killed Osama Bin Laden. Since then, his administration has been hard at work screwing the whole thing up.



And this (list is at the link):

Daily Caller, 05/04/11, by Amanda Carey who wrote:
In the days following the death of Osama bin Laden, the White House’s narrative on the basic facts of the missions evolved and along with it, the news reports. Three days after President Obama confirmed that U.S. forces killed the al-Qaeda leader, there have been numerous accounts and inconsistencies. Below are some of the most glaring.

Pons Asinorum
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby yuya1963 » Thu May 05, 2011 12:07 pm

I dont see a need to post his photo. To me, its better to take the "high road" then to lower ourselfs to their standards. He's dead, when or where, it dosnt matter to me. He's just dead.
yuya1963
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Thu May 05, 2011 4:47 pm

Excellent post Pons. The thing that keeps me wondering is, if terrorist were really wanting to get us why haven't they already, again? Our b-o-r-d-e-r-s down south are worthless and will be even more so in June since the obama administration thinks there is no problem down there so they are pulling over a thousand national guards from their posts, among the other things they are doing. It has been confirmed that the terrorist group called Hezbollah has made a base across the border in Mexico and are pals with the drug lords. So, are they just waiting for the right moment or what?

I had to spell b-o-r-d-e-r-s like this, because every time I spell it the right way and post some how spam shows up within my sentence, wth? I can type that word and post it on other sites without problems so why is it doing it here? Anyone else have that problem?
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Thu May 05, 2011 5:41 pm

Thanks Theory -- many different opinions on this issue ;-)

Border(s) is a corporate bookstore and the filter on this site is set-up to prevent any commercial bookstores from advertising (including mention of its name). Overkill for sure, but it is what it is ;-)

--

I'm with you Theory -- your larger point about why no terrorists have taken advantage of our porous border(s) is a good one (and granted, they may have, we just do not know yet). Maybe the drug lords are keeping Islamic Terrorists out (bad for business if we had to set our military on the border(s) in a combat posture) ;-). Pure speculation on my part, but whatever the reason, it seems this security hole is a major vulnerability and will eventually be exploited.

If they are linking up as you suggest (and that does make sense, if money is involved), we are in big trouble. I did see a local TV News broadcast in Texas, where a rancher on the border showed the reporter an Islamic prayer-rug that he found on his property.

Maybe it just comes down to this: Either we are strong enough and smart enough to fight for our existence, or we are not -- and therefore not worthy of a free nation. Guess time will tell what our generation's answer will be.

--

yuya1963, interesting point and one that is increasingly popular and certainly valid. Perhaps, there is another, larger moral point.

The High Road (of morality) vs the High Ground (of the battlefield): maybe they are mutually exclusive terms when we are talking about assassination (not sure how to logically evaluate that). Perhaps the High Road would have been to reduce suffering and violence and therefore not go to war at all and instead focus on security measures.

But we did go to war, and to me anyway, once that decision was made, and given the enemy we face (and their objectives: our extermination), maybe the High Road is taking those measures necessary to end it as quickly as possible (or in this case mitigate the spirit, energy, and recruitment of terror) -- measures such as displaying the dead body of the "spiritual" leader for all to see. As such, maybe that is the High Road in the sense that this war could end or perhaps be reduced.

In short, we display the body not to emulate our enemy's "standards," but for the reason to show our enemy in terms they can understand, this is not a holy war (God did not protect OBL) -- and maybe shorten this war on terror in some manner. It is rapidly becoming a moot point as our opportunity is slipping away.

In any event, I admit I am not necessarily on morally defensible grounds, but if one supported the assassination of OBL, then neither is that person. The goal ought to be to end this by defeating our enemy in some tangible way, as quickly as possible.
Pons Asinorum
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Serene » Thu May 05, 2011 9:23 pm

greekben wrote:A Muslim killing another Muslim just seems odd to me?


I find your post extremely offensive. :x
Serene
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Pons Asinorum » Fri May 06, 2011 12:35 am

For those interested, more on DNA:

Popular Mechanics, Osama bin Laden's DNA: How Sure Is 99.9 Percent Sure?, 05/03/11, by Sharon Weinberger who wrote:
The process of extracting and purifying the DNA can be done in as little as a half-hour; then experts require a few hours to amplify, analyze and match it. The biggest piece of equipment needed is a genetic analyzer, a desk-size apparatus that weighs a couple hundred pounds (which could well explain why bin Laden's body had to be transported back to Afghanistan for identification).

...

But Krane [Dan Krane, a professor of genetics and a DNA expert at Wright State University in Ohio] and others—such as William Thompson, a criminology professor at the University of California, Irvine, and an expert in DNA forensics—say that the 99.9 percent confidence number, which the U.S. government reportedly arrived at by comparing the DNA to that of bin Laden's half-sister, is slightly misleading. The key distinction, Thompson says, is that the results speak to the probability of a relationship between the two people, not the actual identity of the dead man.

...

One complicating factor in identifying bin Laden is that he has no full siblings. "In the case of half-siblings, it is harder to state that there is a match because all one can do is state that it is likely the two people shared a common ancestor (you would not be able to say they are half-brother and -sister any more than you could say they are cousins)," Steven Laken, the CEO of DNA analysis firm Cephos, writes in an email to PM. "In the case of the bin Ladens, there may have been consanguineous marriages (marriages between related people), and this makes it trickier."



In statistics, a confidence interval is a measure of how likely a repeated experiment would yield the same result if all possible DNA samples were tested.

In the OBL case, 99.9% confidence does not mean that there is a 99.9% chance the DNA sample is OBL's, but that it likely matches a relative of OBL's, as opposed to that of a random person.

Not to worry though, we can still conduct tests on OBL's body... <splash!> ... :shock:
Pons Asinorum
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Theory » Fri May 06, 2011 5:06 am

Who wants to go swimming?? Me me me me! :lol:

I thought the story from earlier this week said there were only osama, four of his men, and his one wife at the compound when it all went down?? And that his wife and him were in the same room together and yet she is claiming she did not see the U.S kill him, but the oldest daughter did?? For one, if your in the same room how can you not see your husband get shot, and two where or when the heck did this oldest daughter come into the picture? I don't know, I'm getting so dang confused with all the different stories :?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110506/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_bin_laden
Theory
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri May 06, 2011 7:29 am

These stories have more holes in them than swiss cheese.
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
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Re: Osama bin Laden confirmed dead

Postby Shaun_Omega » Fri May 06, 2011 9:35 am

I love how they already have a movie in the works for the assassination of Bin laden, guess they want to rush it out in time for the next election. Hey at least they will have a whole bunch of stories to choose from, I mean the US government keeps changing their story every day, and guess what, people still buy into it!

People don't want truth, they are too happy believing in lies fed to them by people they don't even know, talk about your bad jokes.
Shaun_Omega
 
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