Lost city of the Grand Canyon

[Inquiring Mind]

I've heard Dave Childress speak about this place several times in some of his interviews. It's absolutely mind blowing the extent of what we don't know-or I should say what is deliberately being hidden from us.

[Inquisitive]

I have found this thread very interesting because it brought to mind of when I was in Las Lunas, New Mexico:
A basalt stone with strange lettering carved into it was discovered by ancient Native Americans and then early Spanish colonial settlers in the 1600's.
The markings on the stone are estimated to be over 2000 years old and it wasn't until 1978 that a woman named Dixie Perkins translated the Greek-Phoenician- Canaanite message into English. It is the horror story of what happened to a man named Zakyneros, the author of these writings, and his explorer companions.
In a previous post someone mentioned the Greeks and American Indians, I wonder if there is a connection here? Or not, but it sure made for some interesting conversation with my wife and kid that day as we sat at the top of the plateau and ate lunch in what appeared to us as an old house foundation made of stone.

[mahalla2]

I have found this thread very interesting because it brought to mind of when I was in Las Lunas, New Mexico:
A basalt stone with strange lettering carved into it was discovered by ancient Native Americans and then early Spanish colonial settlers in the 1600's.
The markings on the stone are estimated to be over 2000 years old and it wasn't until 1978 that a woman named Dixie Perkins translated the Greek-Phoenician- Canaanite message into English. It is the horror story of what happened to a man named Zakyneros, the author of these writings, and his explorer companions.
In a previous post someone mentioned the Greeks and American Indians, I wonder if there is a connection here? Or not, but it sure made for some interesting conversation with my wife and kid that day as we sat at the top of the plateau and ate lunch in what appeared to us as an old house foundation made of stone.

interesting connection for sure - especially when the evidence is everywhere!

[Fetapro]

To the best of my knowledge the Phoenicians and the Egyptians traveled to America (North and South) on trading missions. This occurred long before the year 1 BC. One data point described a cave in Alabama where Greek vessels were buried. Oil lamps metal vessels and such. These were dated to about 100 BC to about 100 AD.(If I remember correctly) These things had been buried in the cave for hundreds of years. Also one of the Egyptian pharaohs had cocaine in his body. In his day the only place to get cocaine was South America.
The data about and on the stone is logical based on the other data that has been found. It would appear that the Phoenicians and Egyptians, and Greeks arrived in the North American Southwest and lived there for a time.
The next question should be how large was their settlements there and how long did they last?

[mahalla2]

[quote="Fetapro"]To the best of my knowledge the Phoenicians and the Egyptians traveled to America (North and South) on trading missions. This occurred long before the year 1 BC. One data point described a cave in Alabama where Greek vessels were buried. Oil lamps metal vessels and such. These were dated to about 100 BC to about 100 AD.(If I remember correctly) These things had been buried in the cave for hundreds of years. Also one of the Egyptian pharaohs had cocaine in his body. In his day the only place to get cocaine was South America.
The data about and on the stone is logical based on the other data that has been found. It would appear that the Phoenicians and Egyptians, and Greeks arrived in the North American Southwest and lived there for a time.
The next question should be how large was their settlements there and how long did they last?[/quote

yes, and who did they bring with them to actually do all the heavy work (i.e. mining, etc) - Could they have been slaves from conquered lands?

[Fetapro]

Bringing slaves is logical. It was a common to own slaves to provide manual labor for any project in those times.
This could have brought a diverse body of persons to North, Central, and South America.

[Moon]

MysteryQuest did an episode on Bimini Road in the Atlantic Ocean and found some anchors that were dated and found to be from around 1500BCE. (They dated the coral around anchors.)

This shows that there was seafaring between the two continents, and yet it has been ignored by the mainstream views.

[Fetapro]

Excellent data point. maxmercury

Thank you
PS: I think that mainstream science is clinging to the dogma that North and South America were settled by the persons who came across the land bridge before 9,000 BC and spread southward.
The data we are examining refutes this theory.
The underlying conclusions that must be reached if the mainstream theory is refuted are what they fear the most.

[Desert Rat]

I would like to add some factual information to this topic. If you notice my Avatar picture, it is something that is commonly seen on Ancient Astronaut programs and the like. Normally it is associated with the Nazca lines. It is called the Blythe Intaglios , however, and is located 15 miles north of Interstate 10 on hwy SR95 on the California side of the Colorado River.
Like the Nazca petroglyhs, it can only be viewed from the air and wasn't discovered until the advent of airplanes. So we in North America have our very own figures next to the Colorado River. The Colorado River, for as long as the White man happened upon the River, was a navigatable body of water until the building of all the dams prior to WW11. Many paddlewheel boats and boats of all different types and sizes plied their goods and passengers from the Gulf of Mexico up as far as they could get. The town of Bullhead City was named as such because of the immense rock which looked like a Bulls Head. It is submerged in 300' of water with a buoy on the very top of the rock. The river boat captains would aim for this rock when they were heading up river. So the Colorado has always been passable.
Now the story that this heading pertains to that was written in 1909 is at issue. It mentions right at the outset of a Professor Jordan who was associated with the Smithsonian and Kincaid who was nothing more than a prospector looking for color (gold) when he happened upon the cave.
There was only one Professor Jordan who was associated with the Museum. His name is Professor David Starr Jordan. During his life he was the youngest president of Indiana State University, a director of the Sierra Club, president of Stanford University, offered the directorship of the Museum, a peace activist and so on. You will query your search engine for David Starr Jordan and the Smithsonian Institute and be able to factually know all about him, dates, places, accomplishments and his relationship with the Museum. He does not have the same two first initials as the Professor Jordan alluded to in the article. So give credit where credit is due to the right person.
As far as the directions to the particular cave that was given by Kincaid, there is indeed a creek called Crystal Creek on any topo map of Arizona where all the Egyptian and Hindu names are located. He stated that forty two miles upriver from this Creek ( he called it Crystal Canyon) was where the cave is located.
It doesn't take any degree to be able to locate it and there is a trail map that shows it if you are interested in knowing on a map where it is. I refuse to upload mine!
Because of the importance of discoverys that have World Significance and need to be protected by rational entities, I for one, am glad that such places and people exist.
We will all know, in due time, where we came from and the entire truth of the History of the planet. I just hope I can hang on for a while longer and be around for the disclosure.
Thank you for reading my two cents worth. Bill, Northern AZ

[Bob137]

Thanks for the info Desert Rat, I will add that to what I know of this, and other sites. It would sure be nice if one of us could get to that site, and check it out, without government control.

[Moon]

Thank you for adding that, Desert Rat. I also want to add this article by Mr David Hatcher Childress:

http://www.crystalinks.com/gc_egyptconnection.html

It is about the alleged Egyptian find in the Grand Canyon.

[Bob137]

Thanks for the link Max, I have a book on it also. That site has more information than my book does though.

[seeker1117]

Wow...glad this thread was resurrected! I'd never heard of this until now. What hits me, right off the bat, is the thought that this cave may be a direct tie-in to the (alleged/possible) underground tunnel/base system that the Lizards are purported to have, thus the "off limits" designation by the gummint types...no big fences or guards posted, as it's so difficult to get to that anyone trying would be 'caught' LONG before they could get in. Interesting to note the original story's line about the chamber "smelling of snakes"...!

[Moon]

Thanks for the link Max, I have a book on it also. That site has more information than my book does though.

I Googled all the names mentioned in the article and all I get are articles about the newspaper story. There are none verifying whether or not these named people ever lived or are even real. Still, this is one of the more interesting stories out there. I do love how it is always dismissed as a hoax without any real investigation. What is needed is someone to actually go to the places mentioned and physically look through archives to find the names. Not everything has been put on digital files yet.

[Desert Rat]

Just to add some more information about the actual location of this cave for those who are thinking about going to this area.
Don Morace who gave the rapids name and location above the river is dead on, however, what should be noted and made aware of, is the designation marked precisely on the trail map of this location. It is a circle with a cross hair in the middle of the circle and to the right of the circle are the numbers 3-47. Once I saw this on the map I had to ask myself what those numbers could possibly stand for. Maybe March 1947 is what I could come up with.
You can ask yourself what our country was doing , 2 years after the end of WW11 with Nazi Germany. I can only guess and have my own thoughts. All those artifacts supposedly were cataloged and sent off to be preserved leaving a nice, mile long , climate controllable cave in it's place. If you want to know why it's off limits then think about what I am posting and don't attempt to go there.
Our Country is not stupid and I have to laugh about the movie, Legend of the Lost Skulls, where they showed a huge warehouse supposedly on area 51 ground with all the World artifacts in boxes neatly stored. One rat, chewing on an electrical wire, starting a fire, would destroy all contained therein. No, there are better and safer places to hide things away from prying eyes.

[Bob137]

No Warehouse 13 then?

[cRush]

Did anyone else notice the date? April 5th. Perhaps this was an April Fool's joke that didn't make it to press until 4 days too late. It just doesn't seem very plausible in my opinion.

I'll admit that I only skimmed this article, but it seems the author is suggesting that ancient Egyptians were actually of Indian origin and descent. This seems to be the author's explanation for the finding of a statue reminiscent of Buddha in the cavern. However, we know that Buddha most likely lived in the 4th-5th century BCE. This is well after the Egyptians were building the pyramids.

The claims that these sections are restricted to the public, and even park rangers, is a bit disturbing, and if proved to be true, definitely lends credibility to the notion that something is going on in the area (or is being hidden). Of course, if that is true, then we will most likely never learn of what this cave truly holds - if it even exists.

[mahalla2]

well, I hate to sound like a broken record but I think the cover-up might have to do with the free-masons again, and their quest to cover up all things relevant to their checkered past. For example, the History Channel aired a show in regards to evidence that the Knight's Templar had been living in North America hundreds of years before it's re-discovery - so why were they here? I think it has been established that there were good and bad Templars, and some were devout Christians while others were connected to something quite sinister. It is not beyond belief at least for me to think that these ancient people from the "Snake" cave were part of a military force from Egypt's sisterland, and perhaps the place of origin that they simply referred to as the land of "0", Ophar, Punt and Zona. There is just too much evidence to suggest otherwise - And Bob actually might have been right on with his comment about "warehouse 13" because the number 13 is also associated with the Templars of whom some were descendants of the Benjamites (Hebrew - 13th child of Jacob) and the Han (Rachel, mother of Benjamin was Han), and I personally believe (from my own research) relatives to the Chinese Han, and the Hon of the Hopi Tribe. Thus, I think the idea presented by the early archeologists who investigated this "Snake" cave is true, and the present day Native people are most likely the descendants of an ancient people once enslaved to the orignal inhabitants of this mysterious place.

[cRush]

well, I hate to sound like a broken record but I think the cover-up might have to do with the free-masons again, and their quest to cover up all things relevant to their checkered past. For example, the History Channel aired a show in regards to evidence that the Knight's Templar had been living in North America hundreds of years before it's re-discovery - so why were they here? I think it has been established that there were good and bad Templars, and some were devout Christians while others were connected to something quite sinister. It is not beyond belief at least for me to think that these ancient people from the "Snake" cave were part of a military force from Egypt's sisterland, and perhaps the place of origin that they simply referred to as the land of "0", Ophar, Punt and Zona. There is just too much evidence to suggest otherwise - And Bob actually might have been right on with his comment about "warehouse 13" because the number 13 is also associated with the Templars of whom some were descendants of the Benjamites (Hebrew - 13th child of Jacob) and the Han (Rachel, mother of Benjamin was Han), and I personally believe (from my own research) relatives to the Chinese Han, and the Hon of the Hopi Tribe. Thus, I think the idea presented by the early archeologists who investigated this "Snake" cave is true, and the present day Native people are most likely the descendants of an ancient people once enslaved to the orignal inhabitants of this mysterious place.

Some grand leaps of deduction in this paragraph. I'm certainly having a hard time understanding how you made these connections, reasonably. Perhaps you left out a few supporting details?

[mahalla2]

[quote="cRush] Some grand leaps of deduction in this paragraph. I'm certainly having a hard time understanding how you made these connections, reasonably. Perhaps you left out a few supporting details?[/quote]

perhaps, but as stated it is my personal opinion from my own research -

[cRush]

perhaps, but as stated it is my personal opinion from my own research -

I'm just asking that you help fill in the details on how you link some of these theories together; so we might better understand how you arrived at this opinion. Let me expound on what I mean.

Might have to do with the free-masons again, and their quest to cover up all things relevant to their checkered past.

You start off by attributing this archaeological site to the work of free-masons.[/quote]

For example, the History Channel aired a show in regards to evidence that the Knight's Templar had been living in North America hundreds of years before it's re-discovery - so why were they here?

Now you state your belief in the opinion that the Knight's Templar was living in North America before the "rediscovery" (assuming Columbus). I'm aware of a vague assertion that the Knight's Templar were Free Masons, and will assume this is why you introduce the Knight's Templar into your paragraph.

I think it has been established that there were good and bad Templars, and some were devout Christians while others were connected to something quite sinister

I'm completely unaware of this assertion, and would like to see some references to it's establishment, as you stated.

It is not beyond belief at least for me to think that these ancient people from the "Snake" cave were part of a military force from Egypt's sisterland, and perhaps the place of origin that they simply referred to as the land of "0", Ophar, Punt and Zona.

Now you state that the people who dwelt in the cavern were part of a military force from Egypt's sisterland. What is Egypt's sisterland? Why do you believe these people were a military force? Why do you refer to the cavern as the "'Snake' cave"? What does this have to do with Knight's Templar?

There is just too much evidence to suggest otherwise

What evidence? You haven't presented any, nor does the article mention anything identifying the occupants of the cave as being associated with the Knight's Templar or the Free Masons - noted for leaving their iconic symbols abundant.

And Bob actually might have been right on with his comment about "warehouse 13" because the number 13 is also associated with the Templars of whom some were descendants of the Benjamites (Hebrew - 13th child of Jacob) and the Han (Rachel, mother of Benjamin was Han), and I personally believe (from my own research) relatives to the Chinese Han, and the Hon of the Hopi Tribe.

The only reference in relation to Bob137's "warehouse 13" seems to be a SyFy show of the same name which is based on the plot that the government stores all of the unique artifacts from throughout time in a single warehouse in the middle of the desert. You also interject that some of the Templars were decendents of the Benjamites and Han, though the relevance isn't exactly straightforward.

Thus, I think the idea presented by the early archeologists who investigated this "Snake" cave is true, and the present day Native people are most likely the descendants of an ancient people once enslaved to the orignal inhabitants of this mysterious place.

The archaeologists don't make a claim that the native people were once slaves of the occupants of the cavern; nor, do they make claim that the native people's descendants were slaves to the cavern dwellers. Finally, the archaeologists make no claim of any ties to the Knight's Templar or the Free Masons. You assert that the archaeologists' idea is true, but it doesn't align with the opinion that you also present as being true.

I hope you can see where I was confused.

[mahalla2]

cRush - Could you do me a favor and go back through all these posts and re-read the 1909 newspaper article completely, then read through the threads regarding the Knights Templar (many of these topics have already been discussed), then if you still have questions about my comments/opinions I will be happy to discuss them with you - thanks

[Moon]

Mr David Hatcher Childress' article also mentions other sources for this story which is why it should not be dismissed.

I also think it is interesting to look at a possible connection of the Knights Templar possibly knowing about this location.

[cRush]

At the request of mahalla2, I re-read the cited sources and posts in this thread in order to hopefully grasp where mahalla2 is coming from with his theories about the Knight's Templar's connection to this Grand Canyon cavern in Arizona.

According to the commentary by Jack Andrews, it seems as though the Fusang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusang) is actually Arizona and the Grand Canyon, or perhaps the entire western coast of the United States of America, as opposed to British Columbia, which seems to be adopted by Mainstream science. I have to say, that after reading the presented bits and pieces presented in Jack's article, that I too am swayed to think that Fusang must be the Arizona area. The description of the Grand Canyon area seems clear, and the distance is approximate enough to rule in favor of it as a possible location.

After reading about Fusang, I found that the missionary reporting it's existence to China also mentions that Buddhism was spread to the people of Fusang. This would explain the Buddhist statue that was purportedly found in the cavern.

However, after all my extensive research and reading, I didn't find anything that suggested that the original archaeologist, G.E. Kincaid, who is unknown and thus unverifiable, thought that the cavern was the remains of either Egyptian or Knight's Templar origins.

The article about Kincaid's find postulates that the Egyptian's either originated from Asia or the Nile river valley (which is accepted by Mainstream science as I understand). However, if you are to believe that the Egyptian's originated from Asia, as the alternate hypothesis suggested in the article, that does not immediately suggest that the occupants were in fact Egyptian. In fact, there is no mention of any Egyptian artifacts found in the cavern. There is, however, evidence of oriental origin - Tibet or some other Asian province. The existence of hieroglyphs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiroglyphs) also does not necessarily refer to Egyptian hieroglyphs; in fact, the article makes it clear that the hieroglyphs resemble those of other Native Americans in the area. If not of Native American origin, these hieroglyphs are more likely Chinese or some other form of Asian hieroglyphs.

It seems pretty cut and dried that this archaeological finding, if it exists at all, lends quite a bit of credibility to the idea that the Chinese, or some other ancient Asian culture, were the first to "rediscover" America, or at least, an example of a pre-Columbian culture discovering America. The implications of this would be huge, and I think it is worth further investigation.

As far as the connection to the Knight's Templar is concerned, I was unable to find anything that established any type of correlation between this cavern and the Knight's Templar. While it doesn't mean that the Knight's Templar weren't in America at the time, or even the Arizona area, the article certainly does not suggest anything that eludes to the fact that the Knight's Templar had anything at all to do with this cavern.

So, if you have some type of evidence that suggests this KT connection, please present it more clearly so that we can benefit from this knowledge!

[mahalla2]

cRush - When did I ever write that the remains of the Knight's Templar were in the lost city of the Grand Canyon? I stated only my opinion that I think the Free Mason's (who themselves say they are a continuation of the Knights Templar) could have had something to do with the cover-up of evidence (Asian, Egyptian, Chinese or who knows?) which is suppose to now be at the Smithsonian. The Knights Templar are known now to have operated the world's first banking system, and their influence was felt throughout the world. It is not difficult to deduce (at least for me) that if evidence of their existence has been found in North America they could have been involved with other old cultures here too. Thus, it would logically seem since it was all about the gold, silver, copper, turquoise, etc., and even slave labor for the mines that many of these old sea-faring cultures knew and had dealings with each other - just my opinion though so please don't pop your cork -

[cRush]

mahalla2, first, understand that I don't mean any disrespect in my posts. I'm genuinely interested in understanding where you are making your link to the Knight's Templar. It seems to me, based on my comprehension of your posts, that you are arguing this cavern is directly related to the Knight's Templar.

cRush - When did I ever write that the remains of the Knight's Templar were in the lost city of the Grand Canyon?

For example, the History Channel aired a show in regards to evidence that the Knight's Templar had been living in North America hundreds of years before it's re-discovery - so why were they here?

I can't think of any other reason why this bit was introduced into your opinion if not to establish that the Knight's Templar were some how tied to this cavern at it's inception. It certainly sounds to me like you are asserting that the Knight's Templar were living in North America when this cavern was occupied.

It s not beyond belief at least for me to think that these ancient people from the "Snake" cave were part of a military force from Egypt's sisterland, and perhaps the place of origin that they simply referred to as the land of "0", Ophar, Punt and Zona.

I took this as meaning that this military force were of a Knight's Templar regiment based out of "Egypt's sisterland" (which it has still not been established to which nation this refers).

It is not difficult to deduce (at least for me) that if evidence of their existence has been found in North America they could have been involved with other old cultures here too. Thus, it would logically seem since it was all about the gold, silver, copper, turquoise, etc., and even slave labor for the mines that many of these old sea-faring cultures knew and had dealings with each other - just my opinion though so please don't pop your cork -

Here you expound on your original post, providing the necessary information needed to develop your opinion. Without this information, it seems like you are just stringing ideas and names together without reason.

Nonetheless, now that your true meaning has been revealed, I can't say that I believe there is sufficient evidence to agree with your opinion; and that is my opinion.

[Bob137]

There is much information coming out now, (that is in books, and on the History Channel, etc..), in regards to people from different parts of the world, coming from 100's to 1,000s of yeas before Columbus ever set foot here. From such has been mentioned here the Chinese to the west coast, their is evid3ence of Tibetans also, and Mongolians, and Indochinese, and possibly Egyptian. There is evidence on the east Coast to the Midwest of the Vikings, the Templars, (most likely Sinclair), Europeans, Egyptians, and Romans, and Africans. From the South there is much evidence of the Aztecs, and Mayans, coming up through Arizona, New Mexico, up through Utah, also from Texas to Oklahoma, and Missouri, and possibly farther North. There is also much evidence of the Polynesians coming to the West coast to North and South America. These were people from all parts of the world utilizing sea worthy craft and scouring our planet across the oceans, but most likely up and down the costs. Their is more evidence coming to light on this each year, and the older archeological belief of all people coming to America Via the land bridge before Columbus is being refuted by the evidence left of all these different people, some from under the ocean on the coasts, some from archeological evidence found, and some from plants that were brought from other countries, then planted here, some from DNA of tribes up and down the coasts of both south and North America. This is not saying that people did not cross the land bridge, because there is much evidence they did, but that was just one route that was taken, due to the evidence coming out to date. I believe that the more archeology grows, and newcomers explore more, and find more, more evidence is forth coming. Also there has been new underwater canals discovered off the coast of the Carolina's around Florida, to Louisiana, made during a time before the waters rose, and I believe the more these satellites with this type of technology is utilized more will be found, such as has also been found off the coast of Cuba. I checked on Google earth earlier this year, and I also found many formations under water in those areas to include the Carribean Islands, that do not seem to be natural formations due to the right angles, large looking buildings, etc... The more one keeps an open mind, and learns of these discoveries, the more one finds that the more we learn, the less we really know about our History!

[Moon]

It has also been shown that the ancient Egyptians were capable of traveling across the Atlantic Ocean to the New World. It is possible they could of circumnavigated the globe and followed up the New World on the Pacific side.

The North and South American continents are rather big and would be hard to miss.

Basically, we should not rule out any visitors to our continent as we have yet to find all the discoveries awaiting us.

[Desert Rat]

One thing that is not being mentioned by this subject and the posts that are being input is the finding of Bronze Age Weaponry. Didn't the Bronze Age occur around 3,000 B.C.? The obvious clue is sitting right there. The peoples who crossed any land bridges after the last Ice Age which ended around 10,000 B.C. were of Stone Age culture. Stone axes, obsidian and flint projectiles and the like. The Iron Age occured after the Bronze Age and replaced the inferior Bronze Age weapons. This seems to be an easy way to date the findings and the cultures that existed during the Bronze Age all around the World.
The other question I asked myself is why would anybody leave their weapons behind and not have them onhand for protection and defense against anyone or anything.
The answer is that they all died one after another until there was no one left and their legacy was all that remains. Bodies were burned and remains scattered to the four winds. The few survivors you will never be able to find. What could have caused this can only be construed as Disease Pandemics.
The Hanta Virus (spelling) outbreak which occured in the Four Corners region of the SouthWest during the middle 90's killed many Native Americans there and was discovered to have been transmitted by breathing in the virus which was existing in rat droppings, and urine. I know because we in the telecommunications industry were given chemicals and protection to do our jobs during this time. Nobody crawled under houses after that.
Another disease which exists in the Grand Canyon area today is the Pnuemonic Plague. It killed a National Park biologist after he opened up a dead mountain lion for an autotopsy to see why the cougar had died. Still want to hike in the Canyon?
Who knows about the diseases prevalent 5,000 years ago but whenever people live in communities thats the cost of no longer being Hunter Gatherers. Pandemics wipe out everyone.

[mahalla2]

One thing that is not being mentioned by this subject and the posts that are being input is the finding of Bronze Age Weaponry. Didn't the Bronze Age occur around 3,000 B.C.? The obvious clue is sitting right there. The peoples who crossed any land bridges after the last Ice Age which ended around 10,000 B.C. were of Stone Age culture. Stone axes, obsidian and flint projectiles and the like. The Iron Age occured after the Bronze Age and replaced the inferior Bronze Age weapons. This seems to be an easy way to date the findings and the cultures that existed during the Bronze Age all around the World.
The other question I asked myself is why would anybody leave their weapons behind and not have them onhand for protection and defense against anyone or anything.
The answer is that they all died one after another until there was no one left and their legacy was all that remains. Bodies were burned and remains scattered to the four winds. The few survivors you will never be able to find. What could have caused this can only be construed as Disease Pandemics.
The Hanta Virus (spelling) outbreak which occured in the Four Corners region of the SouthWest during the middle 90's killed many Native Americans there and was discovered to have been transmitted by breathing in the virus which was existing in rat droppings, and urine. I know because we in the telecommunications industry were given chemicals and protection to do our jobs during this time. Nobody crawled under houses after that.
Another disease which exists in the Grand Canyon area today is the Pnuemonic Plague. It killed a National Park biologist after he opened up a dead mountain lion for an autotopsy to see why the cougar had died. Still want to hike in the Canyon?
Who knows about the diseases prevalent 5,000 years ago but whenever people live in communities thats the cost of no longer being Hunter Gatherers. Pandemics wipe out everyone.

yes, you bring up some very good points - And what many people do not realize is that the hantavirus, the Bubonic Plague, and the Black Death are all related. http://www.surviveoutdoors.com/referenc ... plague.asp

It is also interesting to me that the first documented case of the Black Plague in Europe was brought to Sicily by seafaring tradesmen in 1347.
http://historymedren.about.com/od/thebl ... /msBD1.htm

And although the origins are basically still unknown, there were earlier plagues along the seaport areas in the South China Sea, the Indian Ocean and the Arabian Sea. http://historymedren.about.com/od/thebl ... siaBDa.htm

My question is - Could some of these seafaring cultures also have traveled to the America's too, and brought the virus with them to the Grand Canyon area or back with them to Asia, Arabia or India? Seems to me the virus would have originated in just one location to begin with, and perhaps this is another good reason why there were no advanced civilizations left in North America previous to the arrival of Christopher Columbus - any thoughts?

[Bob137]

In regards to the Hanta-virus it did not start back up until the 1990's, which I was at an annual training in the summer at Fort Carson Colorado, after the military sprayed something with planes and jets overhead, everyone came down with it, the whole 5th Division that was there at the time, and all were give "special" treatment for a few days, and not one died, a day later, the Hanta-virus started around Gallop, New Mexico, and spread. What a coincidence, huh! Does it have anything to do with rats, only that they became infected from the spraying, not already infected then got sprayed. So ZI would suggest it might have happened to keep people out of certain areas, or just random testing to see how it would effect the population, and if they could keep it under control, or for some other black op reasoning!

[mahalla2]

In regards to the Hanta-virus it did not start back up until the 1990's, which I was at an annual training in the summer at Fort Carson Colorado, after the military sprayed something with planes and jets overhead, everyone came down with it, the whole 5th Division that was there at the time, and all were give "special" treatment for a few days, and not one died, a day later, the Hanta-virus started around Gallop, New Mexico, and spread. What a coincidence, huh! Does it have anything to do with rats, only that they became infected from the spraying, not already infected then got sprayed. So ZI would suggest it might have happened to keep people out of certain areas, or just random testing to see how it would effect the population, and if they could keep it under control, or for some other black op reasoning!

My first thought Bob is that the military was doing it's own damage control because any known case associated with the hantavirus (i.e. Bubonic Plague, Black Death connection) would have a specimen sent to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, then the whole world would know about the outbreak. Here is part of an article from the Four Corners area that helps to explain from the Navajo point of view what happened to cause the hantavirus problem in the first place:

http://chrishibbard.wordpress.com/2008/ ... -outbreak/

The team’s suspicions of a new species of virus were confirmed after the team was visited by one Navajo physician and a respected elder, who told them that the Navajo people had experienced an unusually wet spring. The elder has been said to have said, “When the spring is wet, it means many pinion nuts grow on the trees. When there are many pinion nuts, along come many mice. The Navajo are not fond of mice. If you wake up at night and one is on your bed, you must get up, wash, burn your pajamas, and burn the bed clothes. This is ancient belief and practice.”

“Why would you burn your bed clothes if you woke up and saw a mouse?” a team member asked, feeling it to be somewhat extreme.

“Because if startled, a mouse will urinate, and over many years the people figured out that you could get sick if this happened.”

With this tidbit of traditional knowledge, the researchers began collecting deer mice. While the mice themselves were healthy, the team soon figured out that the virus was being excreted in the urine and feces of the mice. The researchers asked where the sick people had lived, and went to their homes. They found evidence of mice. What had happened was that the urine and feces would dry up and disintegrate, and if you swept the floor, you would get this dust in your face and breathe it in, and the virus would re-activate.

[Bob137]

I understand what supposedly happened, and that is most likely the case, I just know from what happened in the forests there on base, and that this happened just prior to the outbreak, and the symptoms were the same as what the Natives had, but we had treatment immediately ready, when supposedly there was no treatment available for their population, the anti-virus for them was developed after the fact, but we were ant-virus medication prior to their outbreak. Maybe what we got from the spraying was different, but it just had the same symptoms, and happened just days prior to their outbreak, but that sure makes for a heck of a coincidence! There were other strange happening during that time there also, such as right above Norad, clouds were making right angle turns consistently, and we experienced a lot of lightning from very low hanging clouds, which the clouds making right angled turns, from my understanding is just about impossible, but hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers watched it happening! Also thousands of soldiers seen the spraying going on, and questioned higher ups in regards to it, and they were all told that it was on a need to know basis, and that they did not need to know! Also what was strange all the officers were taken to a separate area prior to the spraying, (and believed to be inoculated), and none of the officers got sick, only the enlisted.

[mahalla2]

I understand what supposedly happened, and that is most likely the case, I just know from what happened in the forests there on base, and that this happened just prior to the outbreak, and the symptoms were the same as what the Natives had, but we had treatment immediately ready, when supposedly there was no treatment available for their population, the anti-virus for them was developed after the fact, but we were ant-virus medication prior to their outbreak. Maybe what we got from the spraying was different, but it just had the same symptoms, and happened just days prior to their outbreak, but that sure makes for a heck of a coincidence! There were other strange happening during that time there also, such as right above Norad, clouds were making right angle turns consistently, and we experienced a lot of lightning from very low hanging clouds, which the clouds making right angled turns, from my understanding is just about impossible, but hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers watched it happening! Also thousands of soldiers seen the spraying going on, and questioned higher ups in regards to it, and they were all told that it was on a need to know basis, and that they did not need to know! Also what was strange all the officers were taken to a separate area prior to the spraying, (and believed to be inoculated), and none of the officers got sick, only the enlisted.

yes, seems very strange indeed, and makes me wonder what the military actually knew before this all happened - Also from what you stated, tends to make me think there might have been some type of celestral intervention involved or things could have gotten a lot worse real fast

[Bob137]

The clouds looked as if they were going from a irregular pattern, until they got to Norad, then went straight, and turned right at 90 degree angles, as though they were not just going around something, but that they were being manipulated to go straight, then turn at a right angle. Could not see any objects or UFO's around or above Norad, just the clouds doing these strange maneuvers. None of us at the time that were watching this, could figure out what could make them do this, unless Norad was testing some sort of weather formation device, which as stated we experienced some intense lightining all around the area we were at, as this was happening. WE happened to be on a hill at the time, where we had a clear view of Norad, and above it, and around it. We did not see any clouds anywhere else acting in that way! That is one of the strangest things I had ever seen when it comes to the weather, other than seeing the Northern Lights in Wichita, KS back in the 80's.