Lost city of the Grand Canyon

[mahalla2]

The clouds looked as if they were going from a irregular pattern, until they got to Norad, then went straight, and turned right at 90 degree angles, as though they were not just going around something, but that they were being manipulated to go straight, then turn at a right angle. Could not see any objects or UFO's around or above Norad, just the clouds doing these strange maneuvers. None of us at the time that were watching this, could figure out what could make them do this, unless Norad was testing some sort of weather formation device, which as stated we experienced some intense lightining all around the area we were at, as this was happening. WE happened to be on a hill at the time, where we had a clear view of Norad, and above it, and around it. We did not see any clouds anywhere else acting in that way! That is one of the strangest things I had ever seen when it comes to the weather, other than seeing the Northern Lights in Wichita, KS back in the 80's.

Wow - And since you still clearly remember the events to this day, it must have been something very much out of the ordinary! Also, I would think clouds that turn at a 90 degree angle are not typical clouds either so it would seem something was definitely going on! One time, while living in Oregon, I observed a large white cloud with right angles too, just as plain as could be. In fact the whole cloud looked to be more of a square, and if I remember correctly was the only cloud in the entire skyline at the time. I took a picture of it with my phone camera but that was in 2009. Although I have a different camera phone now, I think that picture is still on my old phone which no doubt is around here somewhere -

[Bob137]

Strange days for sure. A completely square cloud, now that I would have liked to see also. I have noticed the weather here has sure been extremely hot for some time. The news just state it is a front, but on a farmers agricultural site, they say it is a bubble that came up from Mexico, and is just sitting here?

[Moon]

If an ancient seafarer is going to travel beyond both Asia and Europe, they are bound to hit the Americas. I can imagine many deciding to sail across "The Big Drink" to see what was on the other side as it is human curiosity to explore.

My problem is why can't the mainstreamers accept the idea that people visited the Americas? I do know the need for evidence, but the thought that they did should not be controversial at all, no matter how long ago the travels and which group of peoples.

[Desert Rat]

I think that is why we are trying so hard to submit alternate ideas and thoughts which make more sense then what the nay sayers have to offer. The pandemic idea is the most plausible to me. Here is another site I visited down by Camp Verde, AZ and the corresponding informational pictures. Remember the Plague was occuring in Europe and Asia in the middle 1300's. There is no doubt in my mind that Transoceanic travel was taking place between Asia and the Western portion of North America. Notice the date of 1400.

[mahalla2]

If an ancient seafarer is going to travel beyond both Asia and Europe, they are bound to hit the Americas. I can imagine many deciding to sail across "The Big Drink" to see what was on the other side as it is human curiosity to explore.

My problem is why can't the mainstreamers accept the idea that people visited the Americas? I do know the need for evidence, but the thought that they did should not be controversial at all, no matter how long ago the travels and which group of peoples.

Perhaps part of this is just politics, and the fact that many professionals have based their careers/book deals on information that is really not historically correct but that's all they know and they're stickin' to it. Plus, the acceptance of new information might cause too big of a stir with this group or that if too much emphasis was placed on foreign cultures having ancient origins here if not considered a branch of an aboriginal people already present in America (sort of a soverign rights thing which I really can't blame them for since our government has already proved it's inability to protect their rights) However, I think this is how cultures lose tract of their own historical origins and then it's just anybody's guess -

[Desert Rat]

This is the other location just north of Camp Verde, Az. which was also occupied by the Sinagua Native Americans. Just like the Tuzigoot ruins , it to was abandoned when the Europeans (Spanish) arrived from their conquest of South America and Mexico. It was happened upon by the US Marines who were stationed at Camp Verde just after the war with Mexico and was named Montezumas Castle because it reminded them of the structures back in Mexico where they had just fought. Marine Hymn, "From the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli". It housed only 35 Sinagua farmers and the location next to it which was burned to the ground maybe 100. So in total between all three sites a maximum of two hundred. All gone 100's of years before the arrival of Europeans. Even setting fire to their own structure. What happened in Europe when people were dropping dead from the Plague? The same thing. I think the South West is the Petrii dish and the incubator for these strains of diseases but thats only my opinion. Maybe the mummies that were recovered in the cave could have DNA tests done on them by whoever has them. Remember a mummy out here is different than an Egyptian mummy. No humidity equals a drying out of a biological organism in a very short time.

[mahalla2]

This is the other location just north of Camp Verde, Az. which was also occupied by the Sinagua Native Americans. Just like the Tuzigoot ruins , it to was abandoned when the Europeans (Spanish) arrived from their conquest of South America and Mexico. It was happened upon by the US Marines who were stationed at Camp Verde just after the war with Mexico and was named Montezumas Castle because it reminded them of the structures back in Mexico where they had just fought. Marine Hymn, "From the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli". It housed only 35 Sinagua farmers and the location next to it which was burned to the ground maybe 100. So in total between all three sites a maximum of two hundred. All gone 100's of years before the arrival of Europeans. Even setting fire to their own structure. What happened in Europe when people were dropping dead from the Plague? The same thing. I think the South West is the Petrii dish and the incubator for these strains of diseases but thats only my opinion. Maybe the mummies that were recovered in the cave could have DNA tests done on them by whoever has them. Remember a mummy out here is different than an Egyptian mummy. No humidity equals a drying out of a biological organism in a very short time.

Thanks Desert Rat for sharing this information, and for the other too in regards to Tuzigoot. I lived in Arizona for about 8 years in the 1980's, and had a chance to visit Montezuma's Castle. However, I can't even explain to this day the sort of spiritual deja vu type feelings I had upon walking through the site. At one point (when I was on a path a short distance from the ruin) these feelings just seemed to overwhelm me and I found myself kneeling to pray about it. This was the first time anything like that had happened to me at a historical site, and that was the last time anything like that had happened to me at a historical site. When I think about the Sinagua people today (and like you stated they left without a trace) I can't help but ponder the similarity between the name Sinagua and the Hebrew word "Synagogue", perhaps it is more than just a coincidence.

It does seem very interesting that the timeframe for the disappearance of the Sinagua people correlates with the timeframe for the Black/Bubonic Plague in Europe, and defintely seems more research should be done in regards to a possible connection. From what I understand many people today believe there are similarities in the cultural ways of the Hopi (and Shoshone) with the ancient cultural ways of the seafaring Celtic people.

[Desert Rat]

It does seem rather a coincedance about the names being similar but the bottom line is the need of a boat to go from one location to another. Not taking away anything from land migration after the retreat of the ice in North America. I will make one more point on this migration of humans by water.
The Apache Indian tribes in Arizona speak the Athapascan dialect and they were the last Native American Indians to arrive in Arizona between 1300-1400 AD. Who are the other Native American Indians that speak the Athapascan tongue. The northern California coastal Indians such as the Klamaths. All the coastal Indians of Washington State and finally all of the North Western portion of Canada from the Churchill River west.
How can you be the last to arrive at the very bottom of the South West and not have followed the coast line of the Western United States. You could easily travel all the way down to the Baja Peninsula, keeping land in sight on your left(Port side) then turn north on the other side up the Peninsula (land on left) to the mouth of the Colorado River Delta. They beached their sea going craft went inland and became known as Apaches.
The other migrations would have had to occur the same way from North to South, always keeping land in site, therefore on the left. Ancient Peoples could enter into the Colorado River area and then turn their boats and start heading south to South America keeping land on their left from Mexico to South America. The maps show that early migrations would suddenly come to the tip of Baja and proceed straight across 100's of miles of open ocean to South America. That's not in line with all the other early Mariner sea travel that I have listened to or read about.
The Gates of Hercules ,for example, fightened those early Mariners because when they went beyond those gates, they were in open water. So early Mariners always kept sight of land which is about 22 miles give or take a few. This was the principle of all early sea voyages. Keep that land in sight because you might have to swim ashore in an emergency.
This means that people five thousand years ago with Bronze Age weapons would have been following the same principle of ocean travel and could have continued their journey up the Colorado.
I would like to put a website in this post which pretty much covers Arizona and all the beauty therein. Things like Archealogy, Palentology, Native Americans in Arizona and the like. The sponsor of the website is very well credited and you can read all about him too. Enjoy! www.http://t-rat.com.

[Bob137]

That is a cool site Desert Rat. I have been to Arizona, (only for a couple of weeks), but I did enjoy my time there. I know there is a lot of Archeological evidence still needing to be found there, and other places as well. A good place to search for really old stuff is the ancient river bed at the Southwest corner of Arizona, that once was a river that flowed from the Pacific ocean, supposedly only as far back as the late 1500's, but possibly it flowed and then closed up, then flowed again, possibly thousands to tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years of this repeating of the river opening and closing. I have read a few stories, legends, and myths on it, and it does seem to be a tantalizing place for various finds. Let alone all the stories of the gold mines in various places in Arizona, and New Mexico.

[mahalla2]

yes, thanks so much Desert Rat for sharing your website with us - I am still reading through all the good information and find it very interesting - I have loved exploring many remote areas in Arizona and perhaps next time will focus on fossil hunting!

Also, you had stated in your post that the Apache are of an Athabaskan linguistic group, and of course this is true. However, along with the Navajo, it is my understanding they came down from Western Canada in the 1300-1400's. Alaska and Western Canada are home to other Athabaskan people as well, and it would seem at this point in time they traveled to the Southwest in small groups across the land. Any Athabaskan people in Western Washington State would have come down from Alaska also. And something else to note is that archeological evidence places the Nez Perce people in their present location In Idaho only from around the 1300's, so what was going on? Most of the much older rock art in SE Washington has been attributed to a Shoshonean people who lived along the Snake River and down into the Great Basin area at least a thousand years ago. The Navajo in their legends speak of a "three hundred year war" and about their journey back into the Southwest after this war had ended. Thus, it seems drought, disease, and warfare must have had a great deal to do with where these Native people ultimately chose to live.

[Bob137]

The Apache also had a style of fighting that is attributed to the only other people is the Mongolians.

[mahalla2]

The Apache also had a style of fighting that is attributed to the only other people is the Mongolians.

yes, interesting connection and perhaps the ancient Scynthians really got around

[Moon]

I am already starting to make future plans to visit some family out West and plan on spending a lot of time visiting many mysterious sites along the way. I am taking notes and will let everyone know when I will take the trip and take plenty of pictures. (Of course funding right now is a problem, but things look better next year for me.)

[amyrigg]

makes ya see your own backyard as a big ol mysterious puzzle ... don't just believe everything ya learned in grammar school - GOOD JOB AA hunters - thank you for keeping me informed for REAL.

[amyrigg]

i love in the li'l crux of land where the Cumberland, Tennessee, Ohio, and Mississippi rivers come together (it covers a vast li'l area) ~ i wonder what REALLY went on around here back in ancient misty ages - i just keep watching, i'll have my eyes peeled - if i see anything i'll letcha know

[mahalla2]

i love in the li'l crux of land where the Cumberland, Tennessee, Ohio, and Mississippi rivers come together (it covers a vast li'l area) ~ i wonder what REALLY went on around here back in ancient misty ages - i just keep watching, i'll have my eyes peeled - if i see anything i'll letcha know

You are fortunate because this is the type of area (confluence of three or more rivers) where not only primitive animals frequented but also where primitve people came from great distances (via the river systems) to gather for important potlatch type festivals, etc. so you might find some very remarkable unexpected surprizes.

[amyrigg]

@mahalla2 - i am so NOT an archaeologist or digger of ancient sites, but i do nose around on the surface and there are jillions and hundreds and a bunch of crinoid and brachiopod fossils (ancient sea lillies and sea life) all OVER the place by the river. even modern-er but still old arrow heads and knives abound - i would not be surprised to see some US/FO (unidentified submerged/flying object) come zooming up outta the river at any time - we live like 1/4 mile west of tennessee river. a bit south of us on the east side of the Duck River (which is one of the ancientest rivers ) flows into the TN river, all very cool and the locals could give a hoot - but they're all caught up in fast food, their jobs, money, you know - all the modern stuff - i'm amazed at their lethargy. I just keep watching to see what is going to transpire - it's all so very exciting

[Desert Rat]

This is probably the final input that I can make relating to the Cave located in the Grand Canyon which is the topic of this thread I guess. I am uploading some information about the Athabaskan Language and the distribution thereof. Also the distribution of the Native American Indians in the SouthWest and Plateau and Basin regions.
You will notice a huge gap in the Western States where the Apaches are located in the South and the Athabascan regions to the North.
No Indian tribes would journey across already occupied regions of other tribes because thats how these tribes maintained control of their hunting grounds, by war with each other and enslavement of those they captured. They (the Apaches) would have had to fight their way down for a 1,000 miles!!!
The only sensible way that Apaches settled in the SouthWest was by means of water and the use of Kayaks. Kayaks are at least 4,000 years old and were in use by the Aleuts, Eskimos and Inuits from Eastern Asia. Some of these could occupy up to three individuals, maybe even more, and were ocean traveling carrying passengers and cargo. Smaller ones could accompany the larger crafts and an entire group of peoples would then migrate en masse. They did not come in onesies and twosies. How could you all of a sudden be an established people that way? That is not how it was done!
If I find out anymore information such as US Geological Surveys pertaining to this region or Freedom of Information material relating to this thread I might repost what I find but I'm going to do other things for now. It seems to me to have taken more time then I wanted to spent on this subject.
As far as I'm concerned, I have offered an alternate and supporting way of early migrations up the Colorado River which makes a great deal of sense. In other words, Alternative History.

[Moon]

Considering the opening season episode is on the Old West area, I am going to take some notes to locations presented there.

[Desert Rat]

In my haste to offer up a plausible concept of early inhabitants in the southwest, immigrating by means of Kayaks up the Colorado River from the Delta, I only mentioned the Apaches who speak the Athapascan dialect. I should have mentioned the Navajo Nation who also speak the dialect. At one time in the past, both the Navajos and Apaches were one group. The word in Navajo for " The People" is Dine which is what they call themselves and the word for "People" in Alaskan Athapascan is Dene which is how they refer to themselves. Sorry for the omission.
I would also like to add that I am descended from the Cree Native Americans in Saskatchewan, Canada. Angelique Meadows (Angel of the Meadows) was my grandmother, the daughter of the chief of the Woods Cree. This name was given to her by my grandfather whos life she saved from death by the Cree when she placed her blanket around him. They became married in the "Indian Way". My grandfather was Alexander Fraser a principle wintering partner of the Northwest Fur Company out of Montreal Canada and son of Colonel Malcom Fraser ( also my Grandfather) who sounded the alarm against "The Americans" in the Battle of Quebec and fought them at the Citadel there and the Plains of Abraham. He was wounded at Ste. Foy but lived to a ripe old age.
Alexanders sister, Angelique Fraser, would marry John McLaughlin who was also with the Northwest Fur Company in Montreal and the two would have a son named Dr. John Mclaughlin . Dr. John Mclaughlin journeyed across the entire NorthWest region of Canada and founded Ft. VanCouver. He left there and opened up a general store in Oregon City, Oregon and became known as the "Father of Oregon". The store is there to this day.
So let me see? I lived in Oregon for 14 years and never knew the history until I started work on my Geneology and now I live 18 miles from Laughlin , Nevada and among the Navajo Nations region. It's a small world after all isn't it.
I no longer believe in chance but something much more. It has no name to me, only spiritual guidance.

[Bob137]

Desert Rat, it is a good thing to learn about your heritage, my daughter has been doing that also, and I have found much information on my past also, although I am not Native American as far aws I know, I have only a few clues on my father's side of his Genealogy. I do have quite a bit of Irish on both sides, that both sides even though traveled different paths, they ended up in Beloit, Kansas, from Ireland, and of course a marriage came out of that. There is a mystry though on my father's side, that I am still working on trying to find out, but i will probably have to travel to Beloit, and Missouri, to find out more. Anyway, it is nice to here that your working on your heritage, aned that you are willing to share some of that information, along with other info on the Southwest tribes. Thank YOu very much. I have read ont he Osage in my area, and it is a very interesting read, and very sad, of what the people that came from Europe did, they sold many of there children to try to make them Christians, and wanted them to forget, and not to learn their heritage. That is disgusting to me, that anyone would do that for any reason. Talk about being evil! That is to me a war crime in itself!

[mahalla2]

well, seems there are good and bad people in all cultures, and some of those mummies found in the Grand Canyon might have originally belonged to people that were perhaps not very nice so let's try to focus on the positive and hope we don't all end up in caves with the country's financial situation being what it is

[Bob137]

Yes the positive is better. There is a lot of North and South America that still needs to be investigated. From the Hohokam to the Mississippi mound peoples that came from Mexico. I have read many stories on finds in the past that were pretty much ignored around Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Utah. I have read though that Colorado,is still investigating many sites there.

[mahalla2]

yes, I agree - And the Northwest has many sites too so perhaps it is just a matter of being open-minded enough to realize that if we find the area to our liking than ancient people probably did too, and hidden clues of their prior existence are probably everywhere!

[Bob137]

That is for sure, even here is Kansas, down towards Winfield, I found a mound area, that does not look like a natural formation, or in line with the rest of the area's natural formations. Since the Mississippi tribes came up through Oklahoma, I think they may have actually went into Kansas, not just Missouri, from Mexico!

[Moon]

I do wonder how many unexplored caves that might have artifacts and/or drawings have yet to be explored in the Western area? There are many known cave systems, but with much of the land being private, how many have yet to be discovered?

Many questions to ponder about this vast expanse.

[Desert Rat]

Been doing some more research on this subject and here's some more ideas and facts for your interests. John Wesley Powell who explored the Colorado River became the 2nd Director of the US Geological Service and also started up the Bureau of American Ethnology. The Bureau reported to the Smithsonian Institute and the Bureaus task, which was authorized by Congress, was to catalogue , report on, and send material to, the Smithsonian of the Native American Indians throughout the Americas. Maj. Powell wanted to preserve and record for all future generations the Indian way of life. The Bureau was instrumental in researching the Mound builders as one of their main projects.
The people mentioned in the Article would not have been employed by or working for "The Smithsonian" at all but for the Bureau.
The Heiroglyphs mentioned in the Article did not necessarily mean Egyptian, considering the source, but instead Mayan Heiroglyphs or any of those cultures in Meso America. They too are called Heiroglyphs.
The Bronze Age was also going strong in Meso America by these cultures (Copper with alloy) and Arizona is actually "The Copper State. Back in 1909, I don't think anyone had yet been able to decipher Mayan language. Not until the 1950's or so.
So, to make a long story short, the cave was probably of West Mexico, Mayan, Incas or Aztec culture. Who ever knew metallurgy, wrote in Heiroglyphics and worshiped Idols. Take your pick of these cultures. I keep looking at that Megalith in the mountain range in the west and can't help thinking that its of one of these cultures. Why does it look south, back to South America and why does it sit on a mineral rich mountain range that has tons of mines and diggings? Many are abandoned but some are still working.
Another thing is, why did my Close Encounter of the 2nd kind occur just over the Mountain in Bullhead, City and the mile wide wing fly right down this valley from the North down to Phoenix, AZ. Are they revisiting the land that they knew before? I really don't have a clue but it all sounds pretty coincedental to me.
I'm just going to sit here and wait until something happens next December.

[Bob137]

Thanks for the info Desert Rat, I am sure in regards to the Artifacts mentioned, than many have considered them to be Meso American, ie Mayan/Aztec, we just like to talk to each other in regards to findings, and what ones are officially open, and the ones that aren't, (bring a lot of speculation).
For one, why would there be a coverup of any kind for it just being another of the Mayan/Aztec migration? There wouldn't, it would not be needed.
If it is Mayan/Aztec/Egyptian, or other, what was found that was so provocative, (or controversial), that it would need to be guarded so to this day?

[mahalla2]

Thanks for the info Desert Rat, I am sure in regards to the Artifacts mentioned, than many have considered them to be Meso American, ie Mayan/Aztec, we just like to talk to each other in regards to findings, and what ones are officially open, and the ones that aren't, (bring a lot of speculation).
For one, why would there be a coverup of any kind for it just being another of the Mayan/Aztec migration? There wouldn't, it would not be needed.
If it is Mayan/Aztec/Egyptian, or other, what was found that was so provocative, (or controversial), that it would need to be guarded so to this day?

Yes, I agree and remember the Hopi have stated in their teachings that the migrations went from North to South so If this is the case they could have traveled down into the Southwest from the Northwest, and the Aztec say the same thing in their legends (they came from the Northwest). The Hopi refer to the Aztec as aberrant Hopi or those people who deviated from the norm. And I hate to sound like a broken record but the Aztec also referred to themselves as knights. Is there a connection to all this and what was found in the Grand Canyon - yes, I think so.